The Theory Is Usually Wrong

Devon Morris: How often is that conclusion really wrong? Brandon Raines: It's wrong most of the time. Devon Morris: This is the lagging team. Falling behind is a position, not a verdict. Today's episode is stop blaming the team. Diagnosing the real gap. My friend, my colleague, a peer of mine, Brandon Raines. Let's just welcome him, welcome him, welcome him, welcome him, welcome him. Brandon, recently we did a we did a APA presentation, man, that I think was off the charts. How you feeling, man? It Brandon Raines: was huge, man. It was huge. I'm, I'm still over the moon about that whole experience. I mean, it was so good on so many levels. It was fantastic. Devon Morris: People talked about it. People reached out. People asked, "Do we want to present in other places? It's been a good response. Brandon Raines: It's been an amazing response, and like I said, it's on so many levels, right? Like you and I got to connect again and do something together that felt super special. Then people actually responded really well to it, you know, and have continued to respond really well to it. So I mean, like, how could you ask for more? Devon Morris: Yeah, well, you know, man, we're gonna have to do the the the round to earth show and and continue to do this for sure. So, so I'm sorry, y'all, we didn't got started here, but let me really introduce my friend here. Brandon Raines is a professional certified coach and founder of Shakunen advisors, he spends his days in rooms with leaders who are frustrated with their teams, and he spent enough time there to know that the story the leader is telling usually isn't the story that is actually happening. I asked Brandon here because he is really special to me, but let me add to that because he knows how to go about fixing teams that have fallen behind, and he's somebody that knows how to diagnose teams appropriately and get to the why. Brandon, here is something I keep coming back to: when a team falls behind, the leader almost always has a theory about why, and the theory is usually wrong. So let's kick this thing off by allowing you to tell me or the audience here about a time you watched really that ground shake and move under a team. Brandon Raines: Yeah, wow. You know, lots to pick from, right? But I would say, like, there's a team pretty recently that I was working with where I had just come in in, and you know, getting to know a team. One of the things I really like to do is to get to know the team, get to know the team, get to know the leaders, get to know the customer set to make to get a really good understanding of what's going on, and understanding that there are so many different perspectives of what's going on, and that those perspectives are important and they're all voices to be heard. I think one of the things is that I understood was they weren't they were they were always getting stalled. It seemed you know just looking at the data and then that data started to match up with the narratives of what I was hearing from from folks and there was just a lot of stalls that were happening here and there, meaning, you know, they would get started on something, and then all of a sudden, it just started to to wane as far as the progress that they were making, and then something else would start up again. And you know, we we started to to look in and and have an understanding, and yeah, like you like you had said, the the ground started moving from underneath the team, and you know the the the finger started pointing at the team. Yeah, toward, and so what we so what we found it was a couple of things. We we had some conversations together, all of us together, and that was another thing that I found didn't wasn't happening a whole lot was that these conversations were happening in pockets. So there was a lot of hidden information about what was going on, you know, hidden from the team, hidden from the leaders, hidden from the customers, and that was one of the things that seemed like it might be a good idea. Like let's maybe let's talk together, share some some things together with with each other. Now Devon Morris: I know you probably had the opportunity to actually get the perspective of the leader. So what did the leader think was actually happening? Brandon Raines: You know, it it was a spectrum, right? It was a spectrum of I'm not sure that I'm getting everything out of every individual on the team, therefore out of the entire team. I'm not sure that they understand what our customer or me is asking for. Like I ask for something, I don't get what I expect. Devon Morris: Yeah. Brandon Raines: I think there was some there was there was there was some frustration even with the customer set and you know asking for a lot of things all at once and not being clear on you know what that thing is describing that thing and when they needed Devon Morris: it Brandon Raines: or or the indecision around what was needed. Devon Morris: Okay, Brandon Raines: so yeah, that's that's what I was hearing from the leader. Devon Morris: You you had mentioned earlier some of the things that you you saw in reality, and it doesn't seem to match what the leader was thinking. So how far apart was those two different realities? Brandon Raines: Oh, it was massive. It was massive. It was one of those things where, you know, I guess I kind of viewed myself at one point as a Martian, you know, looking down on a planet, right, going, "That's different. You know, this is like I'm really visiting a different civilization, kind of thing, and and and looking at it from the perspective of wow, there's similarity from my perspective of what's happening and what I see, but they see such a a desperate reality. Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and I like that description of being that Martian, right? Looking at something from the outside, and so the the the question is, when you when you look back at them, what did it cost them? Kind of sitting in the wrong diagnosis for how long they sat in Brandon Raines: it. It cost them time. It costs them reputation. It costs energy, sanity. Right? People were frustrated, and that's not a great place to be when you come into work every single day and you feel frustrated. Especially when you, you know, I'm of the belief, and this is what I experienced with this particular team and so many teams. People want to come to work and do a good job. Yeah, you know they they they want to do a good job. They want to feel successful, and that's all around. Whether or not you're a leader, a customer, or the team, you know people want to win. You know people really do want to win and be successful, and you know it just it it becomes a sinking feeling when you have that desire, and sometimes don't have the tools, or sometimes have the tools but don't know how to use them properly to get to that win or that success. Devon Morris: So then, when you start going back to that misdiagnosis, give me an idea of why do you think leaders just kind of default to it's the people? Brandon Raines: So I'm going to give you an answer that I don't that always makes Me sad, Devon Morris: okay, okay. Brandon Raines: But I think that it's the easy thing to do. Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah. You know that's Brandon Raines: yeah. the The person in front of you, that's the as humans, that's the easy thing to do is blame the person and not understand the problem and put the problem out in front, and then you know create an alliance with everybody around and say, "Hey, there's the problem. Let's attack the problem. Devon Morris: Yeah, Brandon Raines: it's really easy to say, "Hey, Devon, you're not doing so well today. Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah, and it take it takes it really does take pressure off them from really trying to really figure it out, and so realistically, when you have when you've seen that experience and you've had it time and time again, how often is that conclusion really wrong? Brandon Raines: It's wrong most of the time, You know, it's like, yeah. So I guess the way that I usually see it is when it's the person, it's a situation where this isn't the person for that particular position. It isn't like you suck, Devon Morris: yeah, Brandon Raines: right, or you're a you're a terrible developer, or you're a terrible tester. It might not it may not be a good fit in terms of team, in terms of culture, in terms of this particular product. Rarely do I see it's a skill set. I've seen that, you know. I've totally seen that, but that usually. Isn't that usually isn't the case? That's more the exception rather than the rule. Devon Morris: And and and we not and by no stretch of the imagination would Brandon or myself be saying that you don't have situations where it just really truly isn't a good fit or you have really a performance issue that happens. Those things do happen. We we all can agree on that, right? But as you get beyond those type of issues, we're talking about when it normally really happens. Most of the time, it's just not the case. And so then, what makes blaming a team so comfortable for the various levels of leadership? And then, how do you see that surface in terms of with the team, with the work every day. Brandon Raines: Yeah. So again, I want to go back to to this. People want to win. People want to be successful. So the vast majority of leaders that I encounter really want to figure out what the deal is. You know what what is causing the particular issue. I mean, it's usually why we get hired, right? That's that's the cool thing, right? And I think sometimes it's getting to that point of understanding. Hey, I may need a different perspective, and maybe I, as a leader, even sometimes I have this, I have these these tools, these leadership tools, but maybe not how to apply them in that particular situation that I'm in, and so I think that's another one of those things of of crossing that particular bridge is how do I apply my leadership tools for this particular situation that I'm in with this team? You know, because teams can be different; they have their own they have their own culture and way of working and personality, if you will, and then how do you apply those leadership skills to that particular team that's in front of me that I'm actually leading, not the team from two years ago where I was super successful and everything went lovely. It's the team that's in front of me that I'm working with right now. Devon Morris: Yeah, and you you said something earlier that I want to kind of come back to, and that this goes back to the cost, right? What's the cost of getting that diagnosis wrong? And I'm not talking about in wasted effort because I know we mentioned effort, but what it does to the team is the question. Brandon Raines: Yeah, I I think I don't think I'm not sure you can put a price on reduced morale for a team. Like the hit is huge for it for a team, and I think it goes. It's it can proliferate too. Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brandon Raines: Across beyond the team, across the entire culture, and so for me, that cost is you start to lose faith. It starts to affect your performance. It starts starts to affect the results. Devon Morris: Yeah, Brandon Raines: it starts to eat in, and that success that we've been talking about, Devon Morris: and and and I like that because when when when when I when I think about that brand, and it goes back to the presentation that we did, right? Thinking about that ability to bounce back when things aren't really going right, being able to build up that capacity is impossible. is It's hard to do if you're not motivated. You just don't have the morale. You just don't feel like things are going to really truly go in the right direction, and so it could have a huge, huge, huge impact on a team. And you've seen it time and time again. I've seen it time and time again because we always come into situations where we got to deal with some of the hardest problems, and I know you experience it over and over again, my friend. Brandon Raines: Yeah, and I think what I'm particularly struck with struck by is when I walk into when I work with an organization, I pay a lot of attention to responses and reactions, and and by that I mean, well, when something didn't go as planned, is there is there a reaction or is there a response? For me, the distinction between the two is reaction is, whoa, that sucked, that was terrible. What in the world did we do? What happened here, as opposed to a response for me at least, is hey this is this happened. What should we do? And I think that one of the big things about it is we. What do we do about it? And I think it's what did we learn. So I'll start listening to stuff like that. Do we use these as learning opportunities, and then put those learning opportunities into the next event? Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah. For me, Brandon Raines: that kind of pulls up the team. Devon Morris: Yeah, a lot. And and you want to and you want to pull up the team collectively. Because in many organizations, the team is truly the unit of what it takes to deliver something. Especially environments that you work in and that I work in, there's such levels of complexity that you have to have specialized skills. And if you got specialized skills, usually it means that people, one person, can't deliver everything or do the most effective job at delivering every piece of what it takes to make something, and so you know you you you're gonna have a team more than likely put together to deliver that, and making sure that unit can function and operate in a way where it can be the best team it can be is important. So yeah, so then I start thinking. I'm starting to think about the gap, right? Because we we've been we've been messaging this for years. I mean, you definitely have. I definitely have. It gets so bad that that at least I get to the point where I just go, "Hey, man, if you just listen, we can get over this hump. You know what that that's like, right? And so, when you think about clarity, agreement, environment, capacity, where does it? Where does that gap often land? You know, when it comes to a team, Brandon Raines: you know, you hit it like first word, clarity, right? Like, and that's where I usually see the big gaps. And I'll use another, use a complementary word is is that we use a whole lot, right? Visibility, making things big and visible. Devon Morris: Yeah, Brandon Raines: and so part of that is making the big invisible and being clear. Like a a good friend of mine introduced me to one of those Brene Brown quotes of "clear as kind, and you know it's one of those things of being really clear about roles, being really clear about intent, being really clear about what is the what's what works in this particular culture? What may not work really well in this particular culture? What are we trying to strive for? And in making all of those things really visible, really known from moment one. Devon Morris: Yeah, I mean, and clarity is if I'm a member of this team, as a member of this team, I learn my team member as well, and I may know my team member may be may we might have the same role, but they may be a little bit weak at this particular thing. While I'm a little bit stronger, and we find ways to to kind of cover those gaps. So clarity comes in many many ways. But but I'm glad you keyed in on clarity, right? What does a clarity problem look like from the outside versus a capability problem? Brandon Raines: Yeah. So when I see clarity issues from the outside, I often I will often say, "Hey, what is actually the goal for this particular product? Yeah. Who is it for? Because it's you know when sometimes when I walk in, it's not clear to me. Like I will have those questions, and I will often experience the pause and the hmm, I'm not sure. You know, we're down in the weeds. Like if you talk to an individual developer or somebody on the development team, you know, you you get that pause and not have a really clear answer. Devon Morris: Yeah. Brandon Raines: And sometimes maybe even a customer, because in some spaces that I work in, customers turn over so often. Devon Morris: Yeah. Brandon Raines: And they just kind of handed it to them. Devon Morris: Yeah, no, I I agree with that. I mean, and it goes back to the very simple statement of setting a goal, right? Setting, right? You know, when you think about OKRs, when you think about goals within a sprint or across a roadmap for a particular release, right? What you're trying to do in terms of ROI, having some clarity around that is really absolutely super important. So then, when is it genuinely a people problem, and how do you know the difference? Brandon Raines: I I know the difference in a couple of different ways. So when when is it a people problem? For me, I define the people problem is not a good fit for a particular culture, for a particular team, and it may be a skill set. It may be that we misidentify the skill that we actually needed on the team, yeah. And this person just doesn't fit the bill, or maybe at the skill level that the team needs at that particular point. And perhaps there's not a lot of space for that person to grow into that role. There's just not enough time. Like there's the speed, the speed of which the team needs. To operate doesn't allow that person to grow at the level that the team needs it, and so that may that that may be a personnel, that might be a skill set, and again, not the right person for this team at this particular time. And what are we going to do about Devon Morris: it? Yeah. Do you have do you have an example of that in terms of your experience, something specific without going into the people that were involved. Brandon Raines: I'm actually going through a probably, gosh, I'm almost working 30 years. Probably one of the most egregious examples of that right now. This is crazy timely, So, a person was hired into a team, and this person was replacing someone else. Yeah, and you know, honestly, that person that left the team, huge reputation, fantastic, stellar reputation, and did I mean like this was he? He was the definition of a T-shaped person, right? Like super wide. Devon Morris: Now hold up now, now please, please, please. Everybody's not agile people. Yeah. What's T? What is what is T-shaped? Brandon Raines: Yeah. So if you think about somebody who has a breadth of skills across a lot of different areas, so think about a T going wide, and then there may be a couple of skill sets that they can go really deep in, right? So that's the vertical part of of the T. So that's what I mean by a T-shaped person, and oftentimes teams will, a lot of teams will strive to have as many T-shaped people as possible. I'm a fan of at least having one, depending on the size of size of your team. Okay, and so this this person who was there was a you know like you look in the dictionary for T-shaped person. This guy was that, you know, and so unfortunately, you know that the the next person who was hired, you know, they were stepping into some really large shoes. Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah. Having Brandon Raines: said that, the gap, the gap between you know what was needed and what showed up in this in in the new person was just massive, or is just massive. Devon Morris: Yeah, Brandon Raines: and I think just being able to realize that, realize that quickly, and then being able to reevaluate what is it that we actually need, and let's make sure we put this person. This person shouldn't be on this team, Devon Morris: yeah. Brandon Raines: What do we actually need going forward? And let's reevaluate that. Devon Morris: I'm curious. Like this is this is a this is a question coming from a very different place, and I can ask this of you because you have had several roles, right? So you are probably one of those few people that are a classic T-shaped person. Okay, my question for you, as a person who is a classic T-shaped person with a breadth of skills and several of them that go deep, were you able to recognize be that because of your past being a T shaped person, because other people aren't that, and how do you recognize that if you've never really truly been a T kind of shaped person? Brandon Raines: Ooh, wow! I would imagine. Oh wow! Devon Morris: You know, I say that, Brandon, because I'm a T-shaped person, right? Yeah. And I'm able to see lots of things that a lot of people can't see, and so I'm curious, and I'm getting your perspective on this, right? There's a lot of people that's gonna be listening, watching. It's not T-shaped. How do they? How how do they recognize that if they haven't been exposed to it? Brandon Raines: Ooh, man, you asked me two back-to-back hard questions. I I I think to answer your first one is, would I have been able to recognize that if I weren't a T-shaped person, I think certainly would have been harder. It it certainly made it easier for me to go, whoa, there's a big gap here, Devon Morris: yeah, Brandon Raines: and to do it pretty quickly. How would somebody who didn't have that experience do it. So first, one of the things that I would say is don't do it by yourself, right? Like, and and honestly, I I had to. I I said, hey y'all, here's what I'm seeing. Are y'all seeing the same thing in terms of the gap here, the skill set gap? Yeah, and others. There were some folks who you know struggled a little bit, or were on the fence, or what weren't really sure. There were others who were like, "Yeah, dude, you're right. Yeah, yeah. So that was helpful. It was helpful to me. It was helpful to all of us because it was it was a validation kind of thing just to make sure, because that's a hard thing, right? You're talking about somebody, and potentially their livelihood. It's a job. It's a real human being here. Devon Morris: Yes. Yes. Now, and and and it's not just there's a real human here, but there's real judgment here, right? Brandon Raines: Yeah. Devon Morris: There's real judgment here, and you're talking about somebody who could be really amazing, super deep, like really amazing, super deep. That's one area right here, and they are super dope, greatest ever, the greatest ever. Brandon Raines: Yeah, Devon Morris: but then they had a Predecessor. There was a T shape that that was able to go deep. Maybe not as deep in that one thing, but could go across to help everybody out too. Brandon Raines: Yeah, Devon Morris: that's a tough situation for a person to walk into, man. That's a tough. Really Brandon Raines: is. Devon Morris: Wow, wow, wow. So I'm like, whoa, that that that's tough. That that's spot on. So here's the deal, right? Let's let's shift gears a little bit because we already have done that, and I want to start talking about how to diagnose these things, right? How do you really get at that why or what's happening or what's going on going on, and this is really just trying to deal with that coaching craft that you do so very well. Walk me through it. You've you are brought into a team that's actually behind. Everybody says that they're actually behind. The team knows that they're actually behind. What do you do first? Brandon Raines: I think one of the things I want I do is craft a definition of success. So if this is what behind looks like, tell me what on pace or success look like. Be pretty articulate about that and say that in front of the team. That's one of the first things. Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah. Because Brandon Raines: that way they at least know here's where we're going. Devon Morris: Yeah, this Brandon Raines: is what we need to do. Make sure that they understand that because unfortunately there are times again. This is where I was talking about that some conversations happen in pockets, right, and not together. Is sometimes the team doesn't even know that they're behind or they're not doing what is being asked of them. And so it again is it goes back to that clear as kind kind of thing of being being really clear of hey, this is what success looks like. Here's where we are right now. Let's talk about how we get there. Devon Morris: I think I think that's an amazing that's an amazing answer. You know, I was I was coaching someone through an interview through an interview, and I told them just one big question to ask is what does success look like for this role that I'm applying for, right? It's like what does that end result look like? So for those that don't quite get what he's saying, that's what it's like. Most of the vast majority of y'all have been through an interview, right? And so what it's like is when you get to the other side, what does success look like? And for a team, that's important because if you can see that in gold, now we really can talk about the how the in between the gap between where we are at and where we need to go. So I that's one of the most amazing answers. Sorry to am asking you hard questions or amazing questions, but that's what I'm supposed to do. You're here for that, right? All right, Brandon Raines: amazing questions. Yes, I'm here for it. Devon Morris: All right, so then, so here's now, now let let's let's let's take it in a little bit, right? What are you listening for that the leader standing right there can't hear Brandon Raines: clarity. The lack, or I should say, the lack of clarity, the lack of expectations. I'm listening for oftentimes roll down. or at least pointing out that of what roles does the team need in order to be successful. Devon Morris: Yeah, Brandon Raines: I'm also listening for that that maybe the leader can't hear. Was not aware of tone of how that person addresses the team, but also is there some notion of learning? So just being able to to work in a way such that hey okay we we did a little bit. What did we learn, and how do we push that into into the next cycle of learning? So I often want to hear it. Is is there that notion, or is more of a notion of we failed, that sucked, you suck, Devon Morris: yeah. All Brandon Raines: right, let's go again. So I'm listening for those two, those two things, Devon Morris: I I like it. I love it. I even wrote down a couple here because it just leads into the next thing I'm going to ask you. And again, there are many leaders on a team, right? There's team leaders on a team. There's leaders that are external to the team, so any kind of leader here. Okay, what questions do you ask that? I just I just asked you that, right? I'm about to ask you that again. What tells you the team knows something the leader doesn't. That's what I really want to ask you. How do you know that? What tells you that? Brandon Raines: You know what? The biggest tell is body language. So I. I mean, you know, Devon Morris: literally when I say to you, when I say to you, I wrote down body language is one of those things I wanted to ask about. I wrote it right here, and I said to myself, "I'm not gonna bring that up. We're gonna see. And you brought it up, so great, great minds think alike. Continue that. Continue that thread. Brandon Raines: Yeah, I love, I love to be able to sit and see the shifts in the seat for you know, this kind of thing, or you know, or the the head going down motions that I sometimes see, or you know, the opposite of that of the perk ups, right? Or you know, hmm, ah, the ohs and the ahs, those all matter. Like I, there's some teams that we're in person. There's some teams that you know kind of work remotely. Most of the teams I work with right now are are physically located with each other. Devon Morris: Yeah, Brandon Raines: but sometimes we still get on you know these video conferences, and I will often encourage folks, even if you aren't on camera, come off of mute. And I will often say the O's and the A's tell a whole story, right? So they do. Let's hear them. Devon Morris: You know what's what's beautiful about what's beautiful about what you just said is you and I just did that presentation in terms of APA, right? And we we had never done a presentation together before, and nobody in that room would ever guess that. But here's what I recognized with you specifically that made me be able to ease my soul, right? Is that you were observing the room, you were looking at body language, you was listening, you was present, and what that did is that helped us with the pacing in the class. So as I saw you doing that, I became less worried about the time because I knew you was pacing it appropriately. You look at them and you saying that oh they're engaged in this. Let's go a little thread longer here. Okay, okay. Now we need to take that back and get them moving a little bit faster. And being able to control that when you're doing a presentation with 7500 people in a room is what I saw that you were able to do. I do it. I'm looking at you. I'm just like this. This is part of the reason why nobody could ever recognize that that was our first time doing a presentation again. Brandon Raines: Yeah, so us working together, it was magical and it was really intentional. Because one of the intentional parts about it was we established our relationship, Devon Morris: yeah, yeah, Brandon Raines: our rapport, and quite frankly, the most important relationship to me in that room was the one between us. Devon Morris: Yes. Brandon Raines: Secondary was everybody else, right? That was going to happen as long as us, our thing together was happening, and it happened. It happened, right? It happened in a great way. Happening now, right? Like, and I think what you pointed it out is being able to pay attention to each other and be generous with each other, and and having an understanding of where each other is coming from and be additive, right? It's like that whole yes and improv thing that happens, and part and a lot of that is you want to make the other person and therefore the relationship better. Devon Morris: Yeah. How long? You know, it's one of those things when you're in room, and and this is a question. This is a question, right? How long before you usually know what's actually going on? You know, after you kind of sit with that team or get with that team initially, how long does it really take for you to kind of start to see those threads? Brandon Raines: So I'm just gonna put some disclaimers out here. Yeah, that my answer today is very different from my answer five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago. Right. Okay. Let me just say that to everybody out there. Now, Devon Morris: now you got to say that because you've written books, which means that comes with perspectives. So, I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm with you. Go ahead. Brandon Raines: Yeah, and so experience experience counts for a whole lot, and practice counts for a whole lot. Devon Morris: Yes, Brandon Raines: it's it's usually there are some times where I can figure it out in the first encounter. Yeah, the the first one and and and more disclaimer, right? I always reserve. Okay, that was my first encounter. That was my first contact with with this system that might be. Let me reserve a little bit of maybe I misread something. Yeah. But usually it's pretty fast. Usually it's it's hours, days, maybe depending on how big the organization is. But now it's it's pretty darn fast. Devon Morris: Yeah, I I would say you know I agree with you and and pretty much with me it's it's um it's I just pressed the clap button by mistake, but that was a great answer. With me, it's the it's the first impression. Brandon Raines: Yeah, Devon Morris: because the first impression starts to give you something, right? Yeah, and it becomes part of the throughline. You can even start seeing who's trying too hard, right? Who's really the teacher's head? You can start seeing all kinds of things in the in the initial handshake, in the initial intro. You can start seeing those things immediately if you're listening, Brandon Raines: yeah, Devon Morris: and unfortunately, a lot of people aren't listening, and that's that's where they don't catch it. That's where they don't see it. And I think one of the biggest distinctions with you, maybe with me, is you listen. Brandon Raines: Definitely with you. Definitely with you. Yeah, you can go ahead and say it. Devon Morris: I can go ahead and claim that one. Now you know, but but but a lot of people don't, and and you can you can you can see it like like you can tell the distinction between really good coaches and ones that aren't as good, and it's probably a throughline through all that for me. And it starts off with active listening. Brandon Raines: Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, there's and there's different levels of it. It's kind of like what you were describing when we were in the room at APA, right? There's different levels of listening. There's the us listening to each other. Yes. There's us listening to you know the room, and you know for us, there's stuff happening outside the room too. Yeah. And so being able to be aware of all those all those different levels of what's happening, and being able to integrate that, aggregate that, and then be responsive in the moment. It's a thing, and you know. So I think one one thing that I have stolen, or I have found it super helpful, is I think I think it was I think it was that book Blink that I read when I first learned about these folks, the Gottmans, and they're like these super-they're big heads in the world of relationships, particularly romantic relationships. And I think I might be screwing up the statistics here, but I think that they were able-they were-they were saying that effectively they can tell within a blink whether or not a couple would end in divorce or be successful 85% of the time, listening to one conversation that they had, and if and it was it was mostly about what we talked about before. It was like tone: how do they talk to each other? How do they answer each other? It's all of those. Things and I've started to try to integrate that as much as possible. Is look at the body language, listen to the tone, listen how they talk with each other, and you can tell kind of the state. You can give you clues at least into the state or the health of a relationship, and perhaps even extrapolate a little bit out. Devon Morris: Yeah, I, I, you know, I agree with you 10,000% and you know I I remember the days of doing a lot lot of CSM trainings, and when we went into the pandemic and had to go home and was doing everything virtually, me not being able to see somebody's foot tapping on the ground something, and you know me being able to adjust myself to go really have a more personal conversation with them as I'm training everyone in the room. You you mix you you miss out on things like that when you don't have that body. You don't you're not able to listen to those cues, that body language, things like that. So I agree with you wholeheartedly. I absolutely love the answer, but we don't stop there because I got a I got another solid question for you, right? So then here's the deal, right? Here's the deal because you and I know it ain't always the team, Brandon Raines: right? Devon Morris: So what do you do when the leader is the gap? Brandon Raines: That's tough. It's really tough. One of the things that one of the things that I try really, really hard is developing a relationship with that leader, in order for me to get to the point where you know we can have the convers, we can have the real conversations about can I be a mirror for you? You know, can I hold up a mirror in front of you and give you some observations of what I see? You not agree with me, but we need to at least get to the point where we can have that conversation, and you you think about it, and perhaps even get to the point again, stolen kind of thing. This is my horse training coming out. Is what's the 2% truth? If you don't if you don't think I'm 100% true, could you even consider that I might be 2% true about something? Did we get some answers? Devon Morris: I absolutely love that. I I agree with you, and I would say to you, it's probably the same thing that that I'm doing is I'm getting to know the leader, you know, and and building that really truly transparent. I shoot from the hip, you know. So I'm a straight shooter. So people, you know, kind of lean into that honesty and they latch onto it. And I'm always going to be really, truly transparent and shoot from the hip. So it's going to be sometimes a little bit rough, but it's going to be honest, right? It's not going to be anything in negative kind of way. But yeah, yeah, yeah. It's tough when it's the leader that's the problem. Like it can be really tough, right? Brandon Raines: And I think that's a real superpower for you, Devon. Like you have that ability of being really honest with folks, and people really respond to it, and I think for leaders in particular, they look for that, right? They need it. This is why you get hired, right? Is give give it to me, tell me, right? Like let's have this real conversation. So yeah, yeah, I think that ability to cut right through that is is a real superpower for you. Devon Morris: Yeah, and and that um, it it does mean I don't get all the big big contracts like the big gigantic boys out lie about things, but hey, I'd rather live on my honesty and come back another day. You know, when you need something else, right? So I think that's good. So then here's the deal, right? So what what I don't want is as I don't want this to be all about complaining and talking about problems. We diagnose some things. So then, let's kind of turn. What changes once they start seeing things, seeing it in the right kind of way, right? What happens in a leader when That diagnosis, the mirroring, right, finally lands. Yeah. Brandon Raines: So a couple of things. One is again, I go back to looking at listening to tone, listening to body language. So what I start to see is people start coming in with their chest up, you know, with their head up, I see smiles more often because it's like, all right, this is a better place to come into every day because everybody wants to do that. Again, we talked about that before, right? At the top, is you want to come into work and feel good? You don't want to come into work or like, oh my god, here's another day. Devon Morris: Very true. Brandon Raines: Yeah, yeah. And you want to look around and go, all right, I don't need this to be a family. I don't need these to be my best friends. But I would like to work with people every single day that I can trust. You know, that I know will do a good job. That will try as hard as they can. That will still have. You know, there will still be some things where we we we don't do it as planned. We fail. We learn together. We keep going. So I tend to see the body language change. I tend to hear the tones change, and then the data supports it. The data of what the team actually does supports it. I often I often will say, "Hey, I feel like I'm successful if you get promoted. So you get promoted, fantastic. Devon Morris: You you know one of one, but but the the the thing for you that is different in saying that, and I can say that I can say that because I'm the same way in many ways, I'm I'm making sure you understand I'm not a threat. You know, yeah. I want to see. You know, I feel like there is a big enough planet for us to exist in, and and us all to get everything that we desire, right? And so, whatever it is that's out there for you, I don't have to be mad because you achieved it or you're working to get it. And what can I do to help you get there? Like, I like when you say that because when you do that for people, man, they will run through brick walls for you. Brandon Raines: Yeah, absolutely. You know, a big goal for me is to make it better. Like I first started doing, I first started getting into coaching, honestly, kicking and screaming because true, my my true nature is to be techy, to be a developer. That's like that stuff still plays a huge role even in my coaching, and part of a big part of impetus for me coaching is I wanted to make the world a little bit better for software development because I experienced the suck, right? Like this has got to be better, and if I can contribute in a way to make this better for other individuals, teams, I'm. I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll try. I'll try at least. Devon Morris: Yeah, no, I, I, I agree with that. You know, it's just a. I'm, I'm an introvert with all all extroverted facets, right? So for most people, I don't look like an introvert at all, but they don't see me when I check out, right? So it's just one of those things where I completely understand and I really get that nature because it's something that I deal with right on a regular basis. So then, when you when you think about this this turning of the ship. What is the first thing that they should do differently? Brandon Raines: You know, I so want to give you a different answer, but listen is really the answer. Devon Morris: Yeah, Brandon Raines: you know it really is. There's for me. I I see this personally. I see this professionally. Is having this ability to listen to someone to try at least to understand where they're coming from, and then follow that up by a little bit of curiosity. Yeah, I I've just seen it do wonders because as a really good friend of mine often reminds me of, especially when I get frustrated, is context is everything, and it explains a many of behaviors. So when you understand the context around, you know why somebody did something, what somebody did, it opens up so many doors to so many things, and you will just have these. Oh, that's why you did that. Yeah. Oh, I didn't realize that. Oh, dude, that's not what we were trying to do. Come on, let me let me be a little bit more clear about what we were trying to do. Let's let's turn this around. Let's do something different. Devon Morris: Well, I I I love it, and and and I I love the answer, even though it's repeated. It's not a problem because I think it's the best answer. So, when I think about that listening part, I really think about it as being the smallest change that can produce the biggest shift, right? Brandon Raines: Yeah. Devon Morris: However. You mentioned things that come after after listening, and one of the things that you mentioned, because this takes some effort, Brandon Raines: yeah, Devon Morris: is curiosity, Brandon Raines: yeah. Devon Morris: What is an example that you can give us of moving from that listening to being curious. Brandon Raines: You mean like a real life story or an example of how to get to be curious? Devon Morris: I'd rather go with it. I want to go with both, right? Let's start off with a short story. What do you got? Whatever. Start off with a story, and then what the nugget that's in there is what I want to talk about. Brandon Raines: Yeah. Hmm. So here's where I often, and and maybe this fits in with the theme too of what we're talking about is I will often hear from leaders. I remember at least one leader saying, "Hey, we're not moving fast enough, and I I ask, "Well, what does fast enough mean? And they were saying, "Well, I we haven't we haven't actually delivered anything in a few months. And when I asked the team, "Hey, what what do you all think we've delivered? and they said, "Hey, we actually delivered a few things that were that maintained the system. Devon Morris: Yeah, Brandon Raines: and I don't think the leader understood that they didn't know that, and they didn't know that these a couple of these maintenance items, if if they didn't do that, they would have produced gigantic security holes. Yeah. It one it was a license that was expiring, and if that license had expired, it would have crippled the entire system, Devon Morris: yeah. Brandon Raines: And but but the team didn't really explain that stuff with clarity, and so just being a little curious and asking like the one more question of what do you all think has been delivered at the team side, and then having an understanding from the leader, what what does delivery mean? What does releases? What are those things? I think it just opens up the door to have some understanding, and then again, pulling those conversations together so they can have those conversations together. It was a lot of aha moments for them. So I think that's the for me the the technique is asking the the secondary question, combined with having a little bit of courage. This is a this is a practice for me. Yeah, is right. This is this is the the good old Southern boy in me who always wants to be polite. Devon Morris: Yeah, Brandon Raines: doesn't want to offend, but has to really muster up the courage to be able to say, "Hey, don't make assumptions here. Ask the question, and it's okay if the person in front of you goes, 'I don't either. I don't understand your question, or that might not be the right question. It's okay. You'll figure out the better question after that. But you've learned so much by hearing that. But more more often than not, it's the right question, and usually the response is, "Oh wow, that's a good question. Let me think about it, and it opens up so many doors. Devon Morris: You know, man. Let me tell you. This is this is crazy because I'm thinking about what you just said, right? And I have been with clients, with teams, and my way to start off that curiosity has been at times. That's stupid. And then the question comes after that, and I get just lots of information, right? I can't do with everybody, right? Because some people be totally destroyed, right? But literally, it's like, okay, that's really dumb. That doesn't make any sense. So here's the question, and then I get way more out of them, because I just took away all. I guess the professional courtesy. So that curiosity thing, though, man, is amazing. It's like the best way that I can phrase it up to just take it out of the work world for just a second, right? Understanding people who have a different sexual identity than myself. Boom! If you don't understand it, if you don't understand what that's about, if you would use a little bit of curiosity to learn more about that, I remember when um. When I was at an organization and I first started working with people from India, and one of the things that I didn't understand was why they were acting the way that they were acting. So I started learning about the culture, curiosity, asking them questions, right? The caste system, those kind of things, and it helped me tremendously when I spent a lot of time there, right? So you know, it's like okay, I see a guy that's standing in the bathroom the entire time we're in this building. Well, he was an untouchable. Understanding that was important, but how do you understand that if you don't have any curiosity, right? So, I, I, I'm with you, man. I'm with you. I'm with you completely. So then, here's the here's the question. So, what do leaders do at the moment that there's a setback, even if it's small. Brandon Raines: Figure out what they could do better to articulate the issue better, and then again, it really it comes back to, hey, here was a setback. Let's acknowledge that. Let's all acknowledge that this was a setback. Here's why it was a setback. Let's figure out. Let's figure out together why why it was a setback. What should we do differently next time? Like for me, those are the steps. Devon Morris: Yeah. No. Identify Brandon Raines: it. Acknowledge it. Delve into why. Now let's figure out what should we do differently. Devon Morris: Not as true gap analysis, right? So I we love that. So then, then in a lot of these situations, there are leaders who have messed up already when it comes to that moment and that setback has happened, or they messed up because they didn't diagnose the team appropriately. How do you rebuild a team's trust after things have gone wrong? And and you're the blank. You're part of the blank. Brandon Raines: I think you you start first with acknowledging that is my bad, and here's why it's my bad. Like, don't just don't don't just say my bad because it can come off as lip service sometimes, right? Like, like be earnest with it and say why. Here's why. Here's what I would do differently next time. Here's where I need your help for next time. I think showing a little bit of vulnerability for leaders-it's a-it's a modeling thing too. Because what happens when when leaders model the vulnerability, then it makes it safer for everybody else. So that when, because everybody's going to make a mistake, whether or not you're an individual on the team or the team as a whole, a mistake is going to happen. It's inevitable. Devon Morris: Yes. Brandon Raines: And so I think the question becomes: When those mistakes happen, what is our response versus reaction around it? And I have seen that the more healthy thing is to be able to say to first of all fess up to it and say, "Hey, I made a mistake. Here's what happened. Devon Morris: I mean, if you if you don't, how do you really start to repair it? Brandon Raines: Yeah, exactly. I will tell you one of the things that drives me nuts are the fake apologies. The "I'm sorry if I offended you" apologies. Devon Morris: Yeah, that that that that that that's just like let me just pack up and go home today because this this is not gonna go right. That's keeping me. You're gonna Brandon Raines: reveal to the world if you want to drive me nuts. Nothing happens. Apologize that way. Devon Morris: Yeah, that that that you know I have these reset moments, man, and when I have a reset moment, everything is not going right during the day. I just got to go home and go to bed, and then wake up the next day and just kind of start over like I'm in the Matrix or something. So that's always the case for me, man. So realistically, that's really all the questions I really have. But I'm gonna ask you a final question as we start to close the show out, right? What would you tell a leader whose team is behind right now and knows it? Brandon Raines: I would tell them have a have a little self exploration first. Have I articulated to the team what the goals are and what success looks like? Have I positioned the team in a successful way? Do I have? Are there are there really. Truly, the skill sets needed for the team to be successful with the goals that that I just set and articulated. And if the answers to those things are no, you you have your start starter list for your homework to do. Devon Morris: I think that's sage advice, and so I agree with you completely, and that's really a good place for us to kind of start to shut this thing down. So here's the deal: where should people find you, Brandon Raines: Brandon? For some reason, that "We're in the Waldo" song is. I think the best way to reach me is is LinkedIn. LinkedIn. I am fairly active on LinkedIn. I think I respond pretty pretty well there. So if anybody's looking for me, look look for me on LinkedIn. That's probably the best way to do it now, Devon Morris: okay? Yeah, no. LinkedIn is a way to reach out to you, that's for sure. And then, is there anything's coming up for you that you would like to talk to the audience about? Oh, Brandon Raines: I could go on a long tirade about car racing and stuff, but I guess more germane to this particular topic. I think what I'm looking forward to is figuring out what is my next learning opportunity. You know, I I usually take this time right now to figure out. Okay, the the year's kind of ending, another year's kind of starting. Where else do I want to go off and and learn some stuff. So you know, I guess I'm asking. You know, fill me up. Tell me what. That's that's what I'm looking forward to. I'm looking forward to if there are any other speaking opportunities, certainly that you and I can do together. Yeah. Oh, I am very much looking forward to that. So yeah, I think that's I think that's a big. In Devon Morris: terms of learning, one of the ways people can learn is by securing one of your books. So, can you tell the audience your books? Brandon Raines: Well, I I will tell I will I will throw this out there on LinkedIn on LinkedIn Learning, I'm actually an instructor there, and so you can look me up. There is, there is. I may look a little different, so forgive me on that one. But the video is called "Characteristics of a Great Scrum Master. Check it out. Tell me what you think. I'd love to do a part two to that someday and get get get that up on LinkedIn, LinkedIn Learning, or somewhere else. But I'd love for you all to take a look at that and tell me what you think. Devon Morris: You should just do a part two anyway, man. Do a part two anyway, right? Just do a part two anyway, anyway, and just stream in a lot of that additional coaching stuff, a lot of the sage advice that you brought us here. So I will say to you, Brandon, this was an amazing conversation, brother. I couldn't thank you enough, man. Like that, like literally, like today is the day we're recording this is on the third. It was August the eighth when we actually did our presentation, so we haven't even had 30 days since we did our presentation. So I'm still riding high because of that. We talked about it. You are still riding high because of that. And one of the things I will tell you all in terms of the audience is there's a magic to having peers, like real true peers, people who you respect, and you can respect them from afar. But when you get an opportunity to do something with a peer, I can't name you something more magical. I can't. And Brandon is a peer. I appreciate you, man. Hats off to you. Thank you for joining us. Where every Tuesday and Thursday we work toward bridging the gap for teams that are behind.