Behind What?

Satyavrat Nirala: So I say behind what? What is the benchmark? Where where you are putting your borders? So there is one statement which I challenge: think out of the box. Where is that box? Who put that box? This is the Devon Morris: Lagging Team. Falling behind is a position, not a verdict. Today's episode, Behind What? Welcome, welcome, welcome, everyone! I have another really special guest that has done some amazing things within our community. Is going to have a lot of good nuggets to give you, and his name is Satyavrat, but I can call him Satya Nirala. He spent years in organizational transformation and leadership before he turned to a harder question: How do we build a future where technology, organizations, and society actually help people live better lives and realize their actual potential. He is the founder and primary author of the Agile Education Manifesto, which is written for students, teachers, professors, parents, and most of the show is all about teams and teams at work, but we're actually going to a place where you actually probably learned that you was behind for the very first time, and that's within that education slash school environment, man. Nirala, tell me a little more about yourself, Satya, so and then we can at least have some perspective because you've been around this thing for years. Satyavrat Nirala: Yeah, thank you, Devon. Thank you so much for inviting. The whole idea started from my childhood. I come from a very small village in Assam, where we didn't have even electricity, you know. So, and it is also very personal in my journey because I was born in seven months. I was a premature born. When you are in premature at that age, so I'm 41. So I, you can imagine that that was very difficult from a remote village point of view. But my parents were teachers, so they made sure that I survived. And there was only one big hospital. There was one, only one incubator. That's where the whole journey started. And because of my that seven month disability, there was some issue with my vocal verbal communication, eyesight. So those specific challenges I had in my childhood, and my only goal was to how do I find better techniques to learn myself rather than go for academic learning journey. I think that was one bigger trigger from a purely social psychology, human psychology point of view. I already was challenged on learning things from my disability because of that journey, I think less than 50 people know about it. I train more more than 18,000 people, but less than 50 people know about it because I try to keep it more private. Because my no one can anticipate that I will be teaching, training, consulting because I had issues with my vocal cord and eyesight. I had around 8.9 plus eyesight, and I could not see, so I think that was where my initial psychological reasoning started about words, numbers. I used to type BT, and so many alphabets were different. And because my parents were teachers, I really both my parents are teachers. My father is a retired now vice principal. My mother is a school subject teacher. So, because that environment gave me a challenge to accept. You know, how do you force? I mean, challenge yourself to learn, and then slowly I designed few learning techniques for myself, which I used to use for my make making sure that those techniques are applicable. Long story short, and then my journey: engineering, psychology, philosophy, literature, and I have all three majors and computer science. And I was very interested. C, Java. It was I. I wrote a first code or first software for Assam government that was NTSC. There was a program I wrote a software and it was for electoral voting count and it was in 2001 and so so that was for a specific event. I I was I knew that this might be my industry. This is where I might be able to contribute where where I understood the logic behind the science reasoning, and then from a philosophy psychology point of view, I also understood the meaning of words. It's very important to understand words if you want to go to software development, which is normally mis. Understood, right? You need to understand words very well, sentences. So, fortunately, I got a chance to work with Encyclopaedia Britannica. That is my first job as a technical editor, backend editor, where we moved all 32 volume of Encyclopaedia to a digital system. Devon Morris: Oh, okay. And Satyavrat Nirala: I did, yeah, yeah. I was in a team, so that is when you work on a very, very complex software. You know, first project, you're a technical analyst and you're a business analyst, technical analyst, and you have to think about a architecture which is beyond imagination. It's like 1000s of articles, and this is your first job. Imagine how you feel. So, so Devon Morris: here's a question for you, right? Satyavrat Nirala: Yeah. Devon Morris: Um, when you were a kid, like small kid, did you actually have access to those encyclopedias either at the library or at home? Satyavrat Nirala: No, no, Devon Morris: no, you didn't. Never. Okay. No, because I I experienced having not not a whole set of them, but having access to them at the library. So so here's something that I I want to make sure people understand before we continue. Satya is not in the United States of America, y'all. Right? Satyavrat Nirala: Yeah. Devon Morris: He spends his time traveling between India and Dubai, so he's on the other side of the world. So we what we talking about 11 and a half hours, depending on where you are in the U.S. And he's been doing this for some time. Here's something I I want to start thinking about here as we really start this conversation because I want people to get to know you because I think you gave some really amazing background there. Here's what I keep coming back to: every adult that's on a lagging team, a team that's behind, was once a kid in a room where somebody decided early on and out loud if that kid was behind. You probably experienced that, and what I want you to do for the audience here is take me back to that time you experienced that and what that did to you. Satyavrat Nirala: Yep, one of the challenge that I had is reading. I mean, I was bad at reading because eyesight was not good. So very naturally, you will not be able to identify, say, the words or even alphabet. P will be D, D will be P. So the whole idea of pronunciation was wrong, and of course, English was not a first language. We have third language, right? In that case, because I was in a local language school or government school, so that really challenged me. Of course, the whole ecosystem was also evolving from a language perspective, and from a psychology point of view, it's painful because you expect to know certain things when your your my brother is a doctor, so he's he's class top and everything. I was like lagging. I felt that, and I think that's where my acceptance of failure, which is very naturally evolved from my very young childhood. I think very very few people know. I accepted that yes, no, I might not, I might make mistake, but that natural incremental thinking. That how do I make sure that position myself? How do I find better techniques to comprehend the same information in a right way? Of course, I got my glasses and everything. Even after that, it is very difficult to concentrate. Say, I only used to study for 10 minutes, 15 minutes. After my eyes used to pain and concentration level dropped because of the number of power I had. I had this big glasses because it was eight plus 8. 5. Just imagine, it is almost around 30% blind. If you look into 20 to 30% blind category, fortunately, that really taught me right not just about about about learning. It's more about how you think about learning. I think learning happens here. How you think about learning? Are you appreciating a knowledge which you are trying to come comprehend, or it is for you is a cognitive load, so that decision is individual. So if you want to take knowledge as a very complex element, it will naturally behave as if it's a cognitive load. If you take knowledge as a very simplistic, a logical explanation or academic structure to something. I think that is where I felt freedom. That this is not a pressure. This is an academic structure. Someone has documented that there has a meaning to it, and it it gives some logical reasoning to what we do every day. I think I started to respect knowledge and. Also relate to nature more because I was more comfortable to understand natural aspect of it, and then connecting to academic aspect to it. That helped me really do well in my academics later half my my career. I was bad initially till eighth standard. I was bad ninth. After that, my my my natural improvement happened because seven month born that naturally they after they go into adulthood they naturally and the elements will improve so of course medication another thing and then I got very good rank I was ranked in my state so I got the highest marks in computer science I got 59 out of 60 in my practical C and Java, early those. So I really enjoy that. I think that is where I feel learning should be respected. Failure should be respected. That's how you figure out different ways, techniques, methods yourself. That exploratory thinking will come. I think that is one of the. If I see now as a as a 4041 year old, if I see look back, I I'm still that same person because I made sure that that person don't die because that child is still alive in my experimentation today, in my learning today. I still go into that depth and I read Vedas and Upanishad. That also teaches that how you acquire knowledge as a sense of gratitude rather than sense of punishment. I think that is something which really helped me. Devon Morris: That's that's really different. So when as you explain that right, and having had kids myself, you know when you think about the student themselves, the teachers, the the the you know professors, whoever they are, the actual parents, I look at them as being ultimately a team, right? Satyavrat Nirala: Yeah. Devon Morris: So when when the kids are falling behind, and I'm going to just assume you're such a unique case, right? But when you see this happen amongst the team, that ecosystem that is associated or around a kid, what do you see that happens to the parents and to those children when things aren't really going right, and they're falling further and further and further and further behind. Satyavrat Nirala: Absolutely, great. I think this is something which is so so connected in the whole world today. One of the most interesting challenges as a parent, you see. Now I'm also a parent of an eight-year-old daughter, and when I see that the problem for a parent is we assume things very quickly for kids. I think that is one of the biggest drawback. It's not analysis or paralysis or anything like that. We our assumptions are not based on fact because we think that their cognitive areas are similar to us because they are our kid. So very naturally, our expectation would be they will be very fast picking and they will be better. So we don't give that space as parents that let them experiment their own type of learning. Let's not introduce a learning which is very successful for you. They might figure out their own learning style in that way. So one of the biggest challenge I see in the industry where the the kids who are slightly their cognitive their ability are very very strong, but they might be focused into specific slow focused. So I normally will not call them as they don't they might be lagging. They are slow focused. Their focus is somewhere else. They are still focused, but their focus is very specific to different area. I think that is one of the dimension we have to understand. Those those students who are faster. That means they are just executing whatever is necessary. When you look into the the students who are slower, we think they are slower, but they might be looking into attention. They are putting their energy into very different space, more deeper spaces. So, if you look into the historical journey, the great entrepreneurs, businessmen are not very academically sound. The reason is they are more into spaces where not pattern. They want to challenge that pattern? I think we should be respecting that as parents, and that is one of the learning parents, teachers, and educators should be knowing that that space gives the experimentation space, which is necessary to live live the world the way only the practical, academic, structured space one would be very good because they just have to follow what is done and what should be done. And those people who we consider those students we we might consider that slowing them down. Maybe they are focusing onto very different depth that we don't even know. I think that is something we as teachers, parents should be knowing. And this is very different kind of intellectual reason. As a parent, you will get after you realize that it happened with you. Of course, this is very different space from a learning point of view. Devon Morris: So, so what you're so what I'm hearing, and you let me know if I'm hearing it correctly. Satyavrat Nirala: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Devon Morris: Empowering the student to choose that learning direction that is best suited for them. Satyavrat Nirala: Yeah, yeah. Devon Morris: I like that. I like that. So, so here's a question for you: You wrote the manifesto, right? The Agile Education Manifesto from a different perspective, and I've seen eduScrum, and I've seen other manifestos that's been that's written related to that that actually existed before you wrote your manifesto, right? Those things existed, right? And so, because the way learning was set up just felt wrong, likely to you. Yeah. What was the moment that you knew that you needed to do something about it? Satyavrat Nirala: I think when I was so much. I mean, when we entered into the world of agility, and I was in a conference, Scrum Alliance, and all as part of a reviewing board, and also Global Scrum Gathering we did in Bangalore 2015 16 right. That was one of the trigger. I thought if it can change the whole idea of software in so many different ways. I mean, it in it gave life to the whole world in a different space. This would not have been possible if that was not possible almost 25 years back, right? We could not have been talking like this. It's impossible. We can could cannot even imagine. I think everything today, the whole scalability, the growth, the maturity, everything, the whole knowledge transfer is because of that world that those 17 people thought that yes, we have to think differently about physical and digital idea, or tangible or intangible idea, more from a what you can control, command and control to more collective thinking kind of idea. I think that is one of the biggest trigger, and also in the in the framework, I made sure that I use homage to Manifesto for Agile Software Development because I learned from those leaders and that is where trigger because of my anyways from my childhood that psychology was there I was researching how I can solve and I know eduScrum and I know I think Willy is one of the early signatory so of this as well. So and another trigger, very positive trigger was there was a Scrum Alliance initiative where there is a Scrum in school. There is a video that is another inspiration I had, and I try to connect. But what I realized that there is gap in that video. We are trying to put Scrum into framework into learning, where the framework should be later part because we don't even know the framework. First, the foundational values and principles should be there. So that is where I thought, of course, this best is very good that we are trying to bring in education areas and applying any kind of framework or any kind of collective intelligence framework into that. But I think values and principles can only define a right framework. Framework cannot define values and principle in a broader sense from that education point of view, because Scrum was built for a software development. Yes, it has empirical element, but learning, school learning, academic learning is very different than that. Yes, it gives experimentation. That's where the trigger was, and then 2017 we were in Agile Coaches Retreat. In that event, yeah. In that event, I propose that I am leading this. I am leading this Agile Education Manifesto idea. Can I share the screen? If what you you are Devon Morris: definitely welcome. Before you share the screen, I want to say this because I want to make sure that that people understand. Right when I said to you all earlier that that that that we have crossed paths, right? Scrum Alliance. I'm a certified Scrum trainer. Yeah. Scrum Alliance. I've been. I probably spent two years in India, going back and forth. Yeah. Attended some of those conferences. So it's just one of those things where it's just like, okay, this is Satyavrat Nirala: this. Devon Morris: All these little connections that happen, and Satyavrat Nirala: connections already there. It was there. I was I was a speaker for Nepal regional gathering, and I was connected. I Jean-Paul and those kind of leaders in Scrum Alliance. They know me personally. We've worked together, but I'm slightly behind the scene. I always like to. I don't like to come in. Because my idea was, let me do something. Let me find a way. Then I'll come and talk about it. I'm that kind of person. It's not. It's not. It's not that I was not ready. I was ready. I could have communicated it earlier about it. But I think I I needed to reach a concrete space where I can say yes. This is universally possible. This is practically possible. I think that space was necessary, and it was almost a research. It's like PhD research. Almost 10 years of seven to 10 years of research. 2020 17. That conference was. It took nine years for me to go to different schools and differently able students also. I I did experiment so much. Of course, the publicly I have not shared those areas, but I've been working on differently able defendum and also those blind people. How they learn, how they you create that learning experience apart from other students and also that gave me very broad elements where I felt that I don't know 0.1% of learning. I don't know anything because fundamental how human brain goes and then how it applies is very very dynamic, and that's where the whole manifesto was written. So can I share it now? Devon Morris: Yeah, you can definitely share it. Yeah, I I got something else to talk to you about, but go ahead and share it. Now I don't now everybody, so you know we have we're recording this in a different different environment than what I normally record. So I'm gonna make sure Satya that that you give me the document that you're gonna share because if it doesn't show up quite correctly, I'll make sure when I edit it, I actually for everybody to see it. Satyavrat Nirala: Absolutely, I've already sent it. the The design is same. I kept a slightly more modern look because I I designed it myself. I enjoy slightly modernist look. So the whole idea of this is to every learner deserve to be seen, trusted, and grown. I mean, these three words are very, very critical. Devon Morris: Okay. Satyavrat Nirala: I think before we talk about manifesto, we talk about seen. How do you observe students? Right. Yeah. It's not just their mindset; it's your mindset. How do you see them? I mean, how do give them space and how do you trust them to fail and also how do you help them grow, mentor, coach? I mean, that kind of journey. So there are four values and six principles that we have defined, and different different learning experiences I had in that designing and different people, different different leadership thought came into experimentation while choosing those keywords, the values keyword, the principle keywords behind the principle, the words every element of the keywords are measured and thought from a very realistic, futuristic journey and real practice in that journey. So Manifesto for Agile Education again. I want to give homage from this platform because that's where our careers we grew as coaches, consultant. Manifesto for Agile Software Development. That is the grateful homage through this. If that is not there, this should not been possible. I think I would like to congratulate all the leaders who learned about that, who made careers, and also those 17 great thinkers. I of course one of the leader is no more, right? So all the 16 leaders who really pushed themselves to design something which is worth, and and maybe after 100 years also will think that as a benchmark, what whatever will build, I think. Again, from that same intention, the idea was how do better ways of discovering learning is not about adopting into learning, discovering learning for not just student, for teachers also, for professors also. Say, imagine 2017, we have written now every professional teacher is reinventing their own learning circle because of AI system and other fundamental. I think this is so critical that they. I mean, even the greatest academician has to learn more because that's how the whole whole technology information is shaping, and that is something so beautiful, and that really made sense. Of course, we didn't change it, but that made sense in today when we read it. And one of the beautiful element that I am very honored to say is feedforward. That's a concept of Marshall Goldsmith. I'm I'm one of the student of Marshall Goldsmith. He has he has a coaching competency that is Marshall Goldsmith Stakeholders Coaching. There are only 400 leaders in the world, and the youngest to have that Marshall Goldsmith Stakeholders Coaching certified. So, in that, Marshall Goldsmith has written a book called Feedforward. Devon Morris: Okay. Satyavrat Nirala: And he he talks about feedback. Say he gives an example. I'm I'm here in the morning, and then I'm I'm looking, and I'm a manager, and someone my my one of my reportee is sitting. I'll say in the morning. I say I have a feedback for you. I'll meet you in the evening. Now from the morning till evening, Devon Morris: yeah. Satyavrat Nirala: Because feedback is seen as a negative connotation word. That person will be frustrated. What I did wrong and why he needs to give a feedback and all. So Marshall Goldsmith gives a very important element. How are words? What you say? What specific words that we use? How it impacts your thinking? Devon Morris: Yeah, Satyavrat Nirala: because when people will speak, or even you will speak, you'll hear for the first time. You'll also hear if you're sharing. If I'm sharing to you, I'm also hearing. It's impacting me as well. Devon Morris: It's Satyavrat Nirala: impacting you, but it is first impacting me because I'm thinking. My brain is already processed that information, and my my other my ears are also hearing. So in that case, if you think whatever you speak, it impacts you first, then the other observer. So that's what he brought in, and he said that feedforward. Forget about. So he said that if I would have said I have a feedforward for you, that is it's something to be happy about. I need to learn something better. I learn something better, not about negative elements or failure. It's about oh how we can improve about it. So he talks about that specific concept, and I am a very deep follower into that organization vocabulary where you look into organization vocabularies which are more positive, which are neutral, and there are lesser. Yes, reinforcement is necessary, but it is not very guarded factory kind of reinforcement that we had. You know that is not necessary in today's world. So I think in academic learning also unknowingly that has impacted in a broad way because of academic learners are also trying to create that discipline kind of journey unknowingly that came into play because of the factory workers model, factory design, and that is what one of the bigger challenge that I personally felt in an education system is to how do you avoid or how do you avoid those negative connotations for the students because that is processing. They are processing in a very different way certain information. How do we using that? That is one of the principle. That is one of the value system that we thought it to be very very valuable. How do you give them feedforward a place where they can feel comfortable to fail, experiment, and find their own way. I think this is one of the value which is very very critical. Exactly same as responding to change our following plan, right? That value is very. If that value is not practiced, all other value doesn't matter. I mean, that value is one of the critical end game kind of right. So here also Devon Morris: feedforward over feedback is one of the most critical ones. Can you tell us about the other three? Satyavrat Nirala: Absolutely. And now, if we are comfortable with that mindset value system that we will be looking into positive element, then we have to figure out what learning approaches we have. We have few learning approaches. Say, for example, this is a subject; it has to be taught in different different formats, and from that there will be certain specific assessment, and based on that assessment, we will figure out if that knowledge is comprehended or not. The same logic applies in every certifications or every bodies or everything. The knowledge area has gone into very specific traditional approaches: content design and structure to the content and cognitive load or competitive design of the content and restructuring and validation mechanism which is Bloom level one to three and then validation yes or no that is very traditional if you look into it's very rigid Devon Morris: okay Satyavrat Nirala: and and also it's slightly more traditional it does not doesn't help you to challenge the structure. It does not push you to challenge why we cannot do that way. You know, unlike some subject like mathematics, some some philosophy or literature or any other subject, academic learning. If you consider, it it looks from a different perspective, so the design is different, the thinking is different. So I think that's where this idea, this value came into play. How do you adopt learning approaches based on the need? Say science. What is the adoptive learning? Is experimentation. Experimentation. That means in science it will fail. Computer is also science. It will fail. So acceptance that it is not rigid. It will not be passed every time. It will fail. Adopted means adopt it because you will fail. Devon Morris: Yeah. Satyavrat Nirala: Acceptance of that idea was the whole idea. How do you put that mindset into very early childhood? That yes, we'll fail. We'll adopt. We learn from it. Is the and then a child. Learning culture now, it's more comprehensive based. What agile has given from a mindset point of view, from elephant, it's a collective intelligence thinking. I think this was not there in factory thinking or traditional management where individual thinkers are respected. Collective thinkers rarely we found. I think that's one of the most beautiful thing that whole agile way of working has given to the world and the industries. Every industry is about collective thinking. It it unknowingly forcing everyone to think not as an individual, execute as an individual, but think like a collective thinker. That's where agile learning culture comes into play. Teachers, professors, students, everyone is to collectively think and figure out how we how we challenge the comprehensive content element. How do you how do we move into building own design of the content as we execute the learning and also competition, right? And it has gone into more commercial business also. How we challenge competition and collaboration in professional career? We realize that it's not competitive assessment; it's collaboration. Otherwise, the whole survival of institutions will not happen. You know, if that is the end goal, everything. The whole world is because of collaboration, right? If you look into demand, supply, if you look into food, everything, natural resources, everything is collaboration. Is if it is competition, then no one will survive. You know, I think that is one of the view from a world view point of view. As a person, I've realized, and also I strongly believe that competitiveness might only give you tactical knowledge. Yeah. Only collaboration will give you strategic knowledge. Devon Morris: Okay. No, no, no. So I see that. That is. That is. Here's here's the thing, right? When you when you're saying this, there's a light bulb that goes on in my head, right? And that light bulb is treating the classroom as if it was a team, right? Satyavrat Nirala: Yeah. Devon Morris: And and here's the the question I'll ask you as you show us the manifesto, the Agile Manifest, Agile Education Manifesto. Matter of fact, I'll ask you to stop sharing because you don't you don't even need to answer this question. Satyavrat Nirala: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Devon Morris: What changes for the actual student who's actually behind when that room full of people stops ranking and starts working together? Satyavrat Nirala: I think they were happy. They didn't get a chance to talk, and they were always stopped. No one gave them attention, or they didn't. They didn't realize that they had the opportunity to talk about a concept that they enjoy so much. I think this is one of the biggest values at site. I I almost was in tears because they said that I never spoke in a class like this. I didn't get a chance to talk about an idea which is probable, but it was not part of the syllabus, so I never spoke about it, and nor I asked this question to our teachers, and I felt that I would be mocked or laughed at my stupid question like that, and I gave a very natural environment. I think that is one of the biggest win where the they those those students who are naturally not outspoken, where they are comfortable and taking the lead. So I normally play those role play. I enjoy, and they like oh, I also have that trait. I never knew. I mean, even they realize that, and when they feel so comfortable and happy about it, that learning is not a pressure. Learning is something very fun and enjoyable, and I think that is one of the biggest value that I've seen. Devon Morris: Wow, I like that, and and here I want to go back and then bring it immediately forward again. You mentioned seeing Scrum being used in education, and you know the video that famously the Scrum Alliance utilized was Hope High School. Satyavrat Nirala: Hope High School, yeah. Devon Morris: Yep, Hope High School. Actually, actually volunteered there and did some work with with the students there. And and one of the things that you you talked about because Scrum is a framework, but the values is a collection of values and principles, right? That's what the manifesto is all about. That's what education manifesto is all about. So my my question for you is: you didn't go and say let's just go ahead and do Scrum and let's just go ahead and take the Agile Manifesto and deal with that. So you really went ahead and said, let's change the mindset between all the people that exist in the classroom, not just the students, not just the teachers, but the parents as well, so we can. Make sure that our students, the people that's learning, have the best opportunity to succeed, and as you say, be happy. So, absolutely, here's a question for you. You obviously has put you put this in the real world. Give me a time that you've seen that happiness just pop out of a student that you had worked with in applying these things. Satyavrat Nirala: Yeah. So one of the elements that I really enjoyed while implementing. I'll just like to share the screen because it will give you context in a slightly different way, so one of the small gap I see in agile, say agile manifesto for software development is there is values and principle, but it does not communicate how these values and principles are connected. Devon Morris: Okay, Satyavrat Nirala: I think that is where there is because it is very naturally designed by the same set of leaders, and there is always an absolute connection to it, and and I had a small discussion with Alistair with that and how it was designed and the whole background of it. Because of that, the whole idea of values and principles are misunderstood. Even today in industry, software development, it is misunderstood. So I made sure that that is respected. So one of the most beautiful thing is when student read those values, and then how it is connected to the principle. Principles are your rule, direction, guidelines that will respect what you are trying to value. I mean, they they they normally used to map what I'll do today to respect the principle. Devon Morris: Okay, okay. Satyavrat Nirala: If I if I respect or if I execute that principle, if I create a rule for that principle, what value I'm respecting? They're able to design it from their courseware point of view. It's not from fun activity. Say I'm learning about. Say I'm learning about heart, right? What is the principles behind how heart functions? If heart functions that way, what is the value it will create for the human body? You know that kind of thinking very naturally came because I never thought that they will relate the values and principle here and apply values and principles in actual real learning, and they will be able to connect. That is heart principle of it is beats heart beats, and that principle always supports the value. Value is we are human being is alive, right? When heart stops pumping or there is any specific, then heart attack. I was so impressed. I I was like so happy. They were so happy to talk about it because they understand the meaning of value and principle through a very specific say say say exercise of learning about heart and heart diseases. You know, I think that is something I cannot forget in my life that how a specific concept can trigger such a big knowledge. I think nowhere no academic areas this concept is written nowhere no books it is written that heart is pumping that's a value that's a principle because that's a rule that's how we live and that is supporting the whole value system that is human being alive. I think I was, I was so so happy, and they were so happy to to take that idea into concert. And because of their concept, all other students started to think in the same line. You know, I think that is one of the most happiest. I I have never anticipated that. I I cannot even even today. If I think that has to be one of the biggest aha moment of my career. Devon Morris: Oh wow, wow, wow! So then, then I'll ask you, right? Because it is one of the values that exists, and and just to make sure people understand this, what what's the difference between healthy and unhealthy competition from the back? So Satyavrat Nirala: yeah, very naturally, healthy competition is say we'll try to do in our own way, and whoever succeeds will succeed. We'll learn from that success. That is healthy. Yes, we are doing the similar things, similar pattern. Sometimes my technique might be might not be good good enough, or my technique might be bad, or I might not see that prospect in that same way, that is healthy. Unhealthy competition is I'm giving the same task and same pattern, and I'm assessing in the same structure. Devon Morris: Yeah, Satyavrat Nirala: without knowing that they might be thinking in a different way. I think a whole academic, whole world of knowledge is governed by Santar. We are already part of it. We are not challenging it enough at an adult age group, we are not challenging because it's a governance of the whole world, governance of the processes. But when they start challenging from early childhood, maybe after 5, 15, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, 50 years, the whole learning style or journey of learning will be very different dynamic. If that. Book goes. I hardly 2, 3,000, 4,000 students I were able to reach as a small say initiative. It is non-profit initiative. Wherever I am doing it, it's completely free. I don't charge anything for certification. There is a framework also, framework for Empowerment and Education Development, FEED, which is my own framework for supporting this. It has been a very big initiative, but as a person, it's difficult to reach to all the students, schools, and also I'm mostly into non-profit and few of the geographies like South Africa, I'm doing for free. Nigeria, I've done completely free. We are giving all the good days and everything. And there are few schools who are very very happy the way we are doing train the trainer kind of journey, coach the coach kind of a journey. How they are adopting certain practices, respecting their academic knowledge, also how they have been able to add, and few of the universities are also we are trying to do, and I think that's one of the value system that I, I mean, from this platform, I'd like to communicate that we need more support, we need more signatory. We need more leaders, more thought leaders to bring this initiative into picture, because it in next say few years, who knows? It might change the way we talk about certifications, examinations, or anything, because it is very differently, uniquely placed into knowledge application rather than retention. Devon Morris: So then, then here's here's a here's a question, right? Because naturally, in in most schools that exist today, there is competition. Another thing that happens is people getting ranked in different types of ways. Yeah. When a classroom stops ranking, who's the first to really resist that? Is it the students? Is it the teachers? Is it the parents? Satyavrat Nirala: I think one of the biggest resistance would be parents, because see, every parent wants their kids to be better, and they need a benchmark for that. And also, they think that whatever life they have gone through, and we all have felt it. Whatever life we are going to have, student has to be better. They will be. If you look into history of time, human human improvement, they will be anyways better. We don't have to worry about it. We are stupid of expecting them to be better. They are already better than us. Okay, so I think that logic we should, as a parent, we should be slightly more lenient towards ourselves. Okay, we have to think that they are already better. First resistance should be always from the teacher students, and then the management side of it because it's a commercial business. There has to be a benchmark that they have to show that we are better than because commercial business has gone into very naturally it's a competition. Commercial businesses are competition. I don't think education should be commercial business, but again that's how the world is. Money as a commodity has created value. So if there is value, of course there will be competitive area to it. I think one of the biggest resisters are parents. They should be more lenient, and they should be appreciating that it's not metrics game. I think the whole idea of the world is sometimes runs on metrics numbers. I think we have to slightly move away qualitative and quantitative. We should be looking to more quantitative or qualitative value of learning rather than quantitative value of learning. I think that slight adjustment will help. And second would be more academician. So how we research on those areas, how academics are researching, how policies are create governments are creating policies. Say Europe, few countries, Sweden and Netherlands, they are very very open. They are more conservative to their own freedom of learning. I think much bigger responsibility beyond than we can decide, right? It's beyond, but there is a trigger. I think resisters would be absolute resisters would be balance. Devon Morris: So then, so then that that takes me back to something that you talked about a whole lot earlier, right? Yeah, yeah. And and I'll just phrase it up, and you you I'll ask you the question. Then feedback kind of tells a learner where they fell short. Feedforward tells them where to go next. Right Satyavrat Nirala: next. Yeah. Devon Morris: How do you help parents adjust to that simple concept? Satyavrat Nirala: First, I normally do a small fun activity with parents just to have. So normally, what to do when you do that. We also invite parents, and and they don't normally participate. It's a separate element when we are learning, doing that activity with the kids, and after that, kids will be there. Parents will also do activity. It's not that we don't allow the parents to see the kids because we don't want someone to vigilance, and then those kind of elements they feel very uncomfortable to talk. But we allow kids when parents are doing so. When parents feel uncomfortable about it, and when they have to communicate, when they all struggle, and then kids, that's fun learning, right? They are not, of course, there is no sense of insult. It's a com common learning platform. When parents feel that okay, it's different experience for them because they've not experienced that in their life. So that's where their acceptance to feedback. If I give you a feedback, how you feel? Then I take those keywords, negative keywords, which they actually hear it because they've already in professional life they are already suffering from it, so when they realize that my kids should not suffer because of those keywords, then they don't. They naturally, I don't have to do anything. There is a natural trigger that they respect that feedback is not important. Feedforward is important because they felt uncomfortable when I said I'll give you feedback to you. So use certain techniques fun way. I think that is if I even if I write a book, no one will understand. But that 15 minutes of that exercise, almost every parent agree, and then they change their behavior slowly. For them also, imagine adult learners changing behavior is so so difficult because they have experienced it. They have experienced it themselves, and they don't want the same experience to the kid. One of the biggest universal truth for parents is they don't want anything bad that happened to them to their kids. So if they have experienced this, they will never do the same thing to the kid. Devon Morris: So then I ask you a different question, right? Because I asked about the parents specifically because you said that they're the ones that resist the most. Now here's the question, right? When that student, that learner, has been hearing that they are behind, what's one sentence that you can give them right now that can help them start to change their mindset. Satyavrat Nirala: So I say, behind what? What is the benchmark? Where are where you are putting your borders? So there is one statement which I challenge: think out of the box. Where is that box? Who put that box? The whole thinking is when you look into behind what behind syllabus knowledge. There is no absolute benchmark of knowledge. So which benchmark you are creating from that behind? So you have no one to say that your anyone is behind. No one is behind. They might be slowly processing a very different element that you don't even know, so I think that is one of the element. I say you are learning in your own pace. Enjoy what you learn differently. I'll ask that question. Devon Morris: Yeah. Now that that that makes sense because if you if you got it in your head that you're behind, there is benchmark Satyavrat Nirala: negative consequences. Yeah. Devon Morris: Yeah. So then, then you start thinking a little bit differently because you believe that benchmark to be whatever it is, and we Satyavrat Nirala: all Devon Morris: learn on a continuum. We all are different, right? So Satyavrat Nirala: absolutely, Devon Morris: it's one of those things. Well, well, I'll ask you this question then: What do you think about grades? Satyavrat Nirala: See, social structure, religious idea, the whole world, whole humanity sustained because of structure or bread, right? If you look, I mean, classes of services, classes of work. This is the structure how they want to put people into, yeah, into those specific work. That's why grades are there. If you're lower grade, and you might fall into that grade of work. So I think this came from factory thinking, factory management model. The education design, if you look into whole global education design, is to fit the factory thinking model rather than the intellectual learning model. I think that is where things are needs to be changed at a very very fundamental level. Grassroot level, the things needs to be changed. Otherwise, the grade will never from a from a empirical design. There needs to be a structure. I am not saying that there is no structure. We don't. Everyone is free flowing. Then there is no absolute meaning to learning. There has to be some meaning to learning, but that should be based on based on decision of their own. Let the student give give them their own grade, where they think that they are. And then you assess it. Our design is like that. So when we do any quiz and assessment, and they will do their, so they will circulate their answers it with other team members, and they will grade themselves. And if they are happy, then it's okay. Teacher will not even intervene. They will be like just like Scrum Master. Do you think your your estimation is going to let them. You are the decision maker how you learn. But only fundamental design is you should not acquire a wrong knowledge or you should not misinterpret that knowledge. That's where the teacher will come as a Scrum Master. So that the whole idea I brought in from a teacher's learning point of view. Your goal is a servant leader. Your goal is a situational leader. You have to give power to them so that they get them. I think grading. I think that is one of the beautiful system. If we can create that each other students peer to peer grading. Devon Morris: So then, then I think we we definitely been talking about students that have parents, okay, great, that's fine. A lot of people are still learning as adults, though, right? So not no parent involved. They may have a professor, still instructor, somebody's doing a professional development or whatever it is. What's the difference between that younger student and that adult learning. Satyavrat Nirala: Wow, I think I I don't know how you got into. I mean, this is such a beautiful question because now that can that should be learned. You that's an acquired skill, so for that there has to be a product or solution, so I'm very very happy in the same platform to share that 14th of November is Teachers Day in India. So we respect teachers and sorry students, the kids and teachers, their collaboration, how kids work. So the Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, so he used to love kids. So children's and teachers' relationship. It's Children's Day, but it's also respect for the teacher. So respecting me as a teacher, me as a student, me as a child. So we are releasing a product. It's called Svadhyaya. So it is a Sanskrit name for self learning. It is from six to 14 years category, and it really applies self learning. So we are introducing that exposure of learning where they learn from not academic learning. This is purely based on UNESCO and EEF foundations, and how you how we should be moving more from commercial learning to more adaptive learning kind of. So we are trying to introduce that as a space where we give freedom for students to childrens to choose different form of learning, not as academic learning, more of a moral learning, ethical learning, technique kind of. So we finally found a way how this can be adopted from a small six-year-old to 14. We are working on 14 to 18-year-old group. That is one of the biggest challenge area. I think the the beta is almost 300 families are using, so they're really really happy how their kids are naturally able to learn. I think if they are alone, if there is no one to support, still we have a way. Devon Morris: Okay, so then when you think about all the people that's involved in this system, whether it is a parent, Satyavrat Nirala: yeah, Devon Morris: a teacher, right, or the student, whether it's a a kid or an adult learner. Man, how do you check whether you were taught the wrong thing or taught it the wrong way? Satyavrat Nirala: One of the fundamental base is when you see into six year, eight year, 10 year today's era, they're flatly saying that I didn't understand. Yeah, they're very comfortable. I mean, they're they don't fear judgment. They are like very comfortable talk about no, I didn't, no, I didn't like it. So they're very com. They're genuinely they are what how you want so you as a teacher you experiment because I taught from six to 10 year kid this if you consider this Gen Z or Gen X or new A zero so they're very quick to give feedforward to you that no this is not working you need to change the style very very quickly because they are their mental maturity is much much higher because they their life started with technologies and information era they are gathering more information than we can their natural brain brain is even when they they are not say. They didn't start speaking from before that. Still, their brain is processing so much information. So, very high-level intellectual say that the real problem is 12 to 18 is Devon Morris: okay. Okay. Satyavrat Nirala: In the whole institution of knowledge plus whole institution of technology, they are in the Devon Morris: middle. Very Satyavrat Nirala: different and difficult choices they have because of very natural puberty and all. They have different different challenges and there is aspiration and other elements. One of the biggest challenge I felt to to teach 12 to 12 to 18 year old from 12 to 18 girl or boy Very quick discredit of the things. Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah. Satyavrat Nirala: Completely, completely academic elements. They don't want to learn. They want to only learn the tactical elements just for survival. And also attention time is very, very less. I think the social platforms and Instagram and Facebook. This is one of the culprit. Their attention time is very very less. Four seconds, five seconds, 10 seconds, 15 seconds. They write and then they they cannot write a very articulative or poem. I normally give think of an idea and write a poem. They are not able to think about poetry. The reason is no one told them to write a Devon Morris: poem Satyavrat Nirala: because it requires purely imagination, right? Factual and realistic. Because poem has to be unrealistic, but it's also imagination. That's why there is also a dream, love context. And if you want to really, if you want to understand that, if there is gap in 12 to 18 year old, you just go to them and say, "Can you write a poem for me?" If they resist, then there is a serious issue. Devon Morris: So then, so then, here's the deal, right? You know, so if I'm an organization that that had classrooms, right? Now I got all the people involved in a classroom, man. How do I know that people are behind and that we're doing our job? Satyavrat Nirala: One of the idea that from a learning journey, if I if I have to give you example from the field. So these are different set of groups. Every group has certain objective. Devon Morris: Okay. Satyavrat Nirala: Just like a software, every specific software development team or complete team has a relationship. They have to complete everything. The topics are structured such that everyone will contribute. If no one will contribute, a whole class needs feedforward. Devon Morris: Yeah. Okay. Satyavrat Nirala: So that's how the whole value system comes into play, where they will push each other. If one person is failing, that's what we do in consulting. That's what we do in agility, right? That we make sure that individual accountability, team accountability, and the same technique I am using, and it's working really well. They are more comfortable to adopt it and respect it than any other adult learner I have seen in in my teaching profession. To be honest, Devon Morris: now, now, now, adult learners are amazing, right? And and and a lot of times people expect kids to go into society knowing certain things, right? Yeah. And so I can see, right, institutions, educational institutions, not being happy with this self-learning thing, this self-taping thing, right? Because there's an expectation that you know, kids be ready to be a healthy part of society at some point, right? Yeah, yeah. Expected certain learnings happening. How do you deal with the person that really doesn't believe they should even get us? Satyavrat Nirala: Yeah. So one idea is because academic knowledge has been a core of what we have been doing, how we have been sustaining. Just imagine our own childhood from there. If we didn't have academic knowledge, I think the whole society would have collapsed. So there is always a very, very strong say, strong positive favor to keep the same thing. Because if we risk it, if we change it, if it will fail, how the impact on severity and impact is unknown, right? In the whole ecosystem of the society in the future, I think this is one of the big. Of course, commercial limits are there. Of course, control is there. There are other aspect. One of the fundamental social aspect is. So this is this is change from the change management element we talk about. So if we change certain elements, how much impact or unprecedented outcome it can negative output it can create. So if you try to distract or distract the dis. Construct those specific structure. So the real challenge would be: Do you think it will change the whole ecosystem of society in slightly different way, where there is less of jobs and may I mean purely we might go into animalistic instinct and so many different element. I think that is one of the biggest challenge. How we should be able to deal it is to find the right balance. Yes, there would be academic element, but one of the class would be freedom class. So, so in in in in three four NGOs that I've been teaching, I say you do your academic element, but every week there will be two freedom classes. Devon Morris: Okay, Satyavrat Nirala: two freedom classes, which is not extracurricular, which is teaching them how to learn in fun way, so that they can apply the same learning in that academic elements naturally. So I that's how you should I we are balancing it and trying to find the right balance of it because when they experience it, they also recognize that there will be some leniency. Also, they look into that rigid structure. Same as the organization rigid structure, and this is trying to create more nimble kind of journey, right? Same thing. Slowly, the same journey we are trying to bring in. Of course, the whole organization will need a structure, right? That is what organization design is. But how you'll be able to soft certain soft elements where the structure will not fall? I think that's what I am trying to find the right structure. And there are coaches who I'm working with it in education areas, and teachers whom I'm doing teach, I'm doing train to trainer, coach to coach. They are trying to figure out which soft spots we can take very very positively. Devon Morris: No, I I like it, and this I have to stop us here because we are at our time. But I have one final question for you, and and understanding that the elements of that classroom is a team the parent, the teachers, the students, right? What would you tell a leader whose team is behind right now and they know it? Satyavrat Nirala: Some in some cases it's possible that some academic elements there are learning disability possible. There are few elements that are unexplored, and so many other ways. So many parents I see they don't even know till child is at certain age that they have some. In that case, you might see that there would be some gaps. I'm not. I'll not say that they will be slow in that. There might be gap to compete with the outside of the world, which is also necessary. In that case, how do you find better techniques to teach them different way? Your pedagogy, your teaching techniques, your teaching methodology. That means there is a strong need to figure out better techniques, tactical areas of teaching, which is very very critical. Where I think most of the teachers' trainings were still very very academically driven. It should be more tactically driven to to to to look into complex child psychology and find better techniques to teach. I think that is the gap. I think that's where the top leaders should be focusing, rather than forcing the students to overperform or force them to that stress level. Devon Morris: Okay. So on that note, I'm going to ask you this last thing: Where can people find you, and what's coming up for you? Satyavrat Nirala: I'm very easy accessible person. I'm a behind the scene kind of a person, but very easy accessible in LinkedIn. And one of the one of the other areas are coming up is we are working on a very different architectural structure for AI, human intelligence, emotional intelligence, and then artificial intelligence. So that is one of the element that last two to three years, which is naturally connected to education element, naturally connected to what we are doing. So I have now in this platform, I'd like to share. I have designed a completely new category of learning, which is communication intelligence science. That field of study I created. I mean, that is more from a AI. So I'm doing a PhD in that area. So I'm trying to look into that. How do you use positive spaces? So how do you hold human intellect intelligence as always a core? I think that is also one of the belief system of this whole education learning manifesto. Is the human intelligence should be always have a higher value because everything we are. Doing for human being. Devon Morris: Okay, I like that. So so so, here's the deal. I hear that you on that PhD journey. Was that correct statement? Satyavrat Nirala: Yes. Devon Morris: Good luck on that journey. Thank you. Okay. Satyavrat Nirala: Yeah. Devon Morris: Need anything? Let me know. I've already crossed it. Absolutely. I'm willing to help any way that you need. Okay. Other than that, I say to you, this has been amazing and a pleasure to actually have you be a part of this journey, and we are definitely going to have another conversation because there is so many things that I just couldn't go in the direction of because there's so yeah Satyavrat Nirala: yeah. This is nine years. Nine years summary in one year. I mean, just imagine. It's my 41 years of life. I'm summarizing. I think there are so many things. There are so many ideas. There are so many elements. I, I, I mean, of course, I have a very very interesting product, which is I very very few people. No one knows that this product exists. So I build a platform for coaches and consultant for self learning for the top leaders, difficult conversation and all. I mean this is one of the most beautiful and this is based on communication intelligence science and it's so beautiful that you can rehearse your challenges. You can look into those challenges as as coaches, as consultant. How you learned? I think there are so many things I'd like to share with you because your inputs would be very very helpful as leader because you connected where in nine years no one connected. You know, I'm very honest. Devon Morris: Here's the great thing, right? The great thing is, you're gonna give me all the links to that stuff, and we're gonna make it communicate to everybody, so they know what's going on with you, and they can actually pick up. Devon Morris: And on that note, we'll just say bye to everybody, and we will let them catch up with you. And I'm definitely gonna catch up with you, so there's no question. So that's it for this episode, everybody. We will see you on the next one. Thank you so much. Have a good one. Bye bye, everybody. Thank you for joining us. Where every Tuesday and Thursday, we work toward bridging the gap for teams that are behind.