New Boss, Same Team

Melanie Shires: You should not have to prove to anyone that you belong in the room. You do belong in the room. Period. And if other people are making you feel as though you don't belong there, then maybe that's the wrong room for you to be in. That doesn't mean you don't belong there. Devon Morris: This is the Lagging Team. Falling behind is a position, not a verdict. Today's episode: new boss, same team. Hello, hello, everyone. I want to welcome you to another episode where I have an amazing guest here. Right, I got Melanie Shires. She is the founder of Positively Melanie and the M Studio, and the creator of the Inner Authority Framework. I took the test myself. She spent years as a senior marketing leader, navigating change from inside organizations, teams of hundreds down to teams of five, and now she helps high-achieving, mission-driven women lead from the inside out. And I asked Melanie here because she sat in both chairs, she's been the one adapting to a new leader, and she's been the new leader that everybody else had to actually adapt to. And here's the deal. Here's what I keep coming back to, Melanie: a new boss walks in, and nothing changes on paper. We're talking about the same title, same duties, Melanie Shires: same Devon Morris: team, but every agreement the team was operating under was just just quietly evaporated, and no one says a word. I want you to just get us started by taking me back to a time a new boss walked in, and on paper, your job didn't change, but what did? Melanie Shires: Sure, yeah, I experienced this shortly after joining an organization as its marketing director in 2023. So within months, the president and the executive who hired me announced their departures. New leadership arrived, and many of the colleagues and mentors I began building relationships with were replaced. My title hadn't changed; I was still responsible for leading marketing and developing my team, but my access to the conversations that shaped our work changed. I wasn't included in some of the meetings about marketing and branding and positioning. Even when my marketing coordinator was, I was accountable for work. I wasn't consistently being invited to help shape, which was really disconnecting. Right? It made me question where I stood. What grounded me was separating what was happening around me from what I knew about myself, my experience, I knew the value I brought, and I knew the kind of leader I wanted to be. I couldn't control how the new leaders behaved. I could choose how I responded. I continued mentoring my young team, collaborating across departments, and bringing care and professionalism to the work. Staying positive to contention. The situation was really difficult. So you know, I look at that was me trusting my inner authority, taking the situation seriously without allowing it to become the measure of my worth. So my takeaway from you know that leadership change was that you may need to learn new expectations and adapt to your approach, which I was very willing to do. But you can assess what's happening around you without putting everything you know about yourself on trial. Devon Morris: Well, that's that's that's interesting. So, so here's the question: You were working. What did the team do while you were working through it? Melanie Shires: Well, it was my responsibility as the leader to make sure that my team didn't know everything that was going on above me. So I just continued to focus on what I could focus on. I can't change how, like I said, the new leadership was acting. But what I could do was continue to nurture and develop my team. You know, focus on their professional development as opposed to what I was being excluded from or how leadership was treating me in my role as the leader for my team. Does that make sense? Devon Morris: That makes complete sense to me. And how did that actually make you feel? Because part of that is you got to shield the team away from things, and all these things, and things are changing in a way where you may feel uncomfortable, where you may feel comfortable. With some things, how did you deal from your inner place? Melanie Shires: Yeah. So for me, like I said, I needed to focus on the things that I had control over. Again, I and this is with anyone. You don't have control over how other people act and behave. That's their, you know, that's that's on them really. I had control over how I responded to things and then how I treated my team. So really, what type of leader did I want to be? So I wanted to be the leader that was transparent, the leader that was empathetic, the leader that you know did active listening and focused on my team and the things that I knew that I wanted from my leader, right? So I did all the things that I wanted to see my leader provide for me for my team, and that's how I shielded them. It really, again, I can't control other people, but I can control how I show up and behave. Devon Morris: Did you ever let the leaders that you wanted to get those things from. Did you ever let them know about that? Speak out about that. Melanie Shires: Yes, I did. However, in my situation with this particular, what I just explained, new leadership came in. Everybody was moved around. It fell on deaf ears. However, I have been in situations where I've approached leadership about something that I felt needed to change, and they were open and curious, and so and again they they showed active listening, they listened, and they did make those changes. So it really depends on you know the individual, but you you should still always speak your truth and understand that even though you can't control everyone else, you can control how you show up, how you handle something. If you if you are strong in your inner authority and you know what you're bringing to a position, you know your worth and your value, then that should help you to have those difficult conversations. That, or if they feel like they're difficult conversations, you know, standing up and speaking your truth, it makes it easier for you to do that and to understand that regardless of what the response is, that you've done your part by speaking your truth. Like I couldn't control whether someone listens to me, is open and curious, and helps me with those changes, or if they just completely shut off and they they don't care. That's not that's not on me, right? But what is on me is me being able to speak my truth. So if something is bothering me, to make sure that I address it as opposed to staying quiet and then being resentful. Devon Morris: You know, hopefully that. I keep hearing you say something, and it goes back to the words you just said: the inner authority. I would love for you to tell me about some of the facets that are associated with that inner authority to just educate the audience a little bit more about what it is and what some of those facets of that is. Melanie Shires: Yeah, absolutely. So inner authority is really trusting yourself, your inner truth, and we have been conditioned, just as a society, really globally, everyone has been conditioned to care so much about external validation, right? So even when you're little, as a little kid, you run up, mommy, daddy, look at what I did, and mom and dad give you reassurance of what you did, right? And so we've learned that, and it goes through when you're trying to socialize in middle school and high school, then when you graduate and you go to college, and even as you're an adult and going through your career, right, or whatever you're going to do for a living, there is always this performance that we do, and proving that we do in order to be accepted. Whether that's accepted into a social group, whether that is you know accepted into an academic group, whether that is when you're you know in your career being accepted as the expert that you are. Right. So it's always performing. So with inner authority, it is just strengthening your truth to yourself, like trusting yourself. And the facets to that, when you have a strong inner authority, when you start trusting yourself and kind of shutting out the external noise because that's what it is. A lot of times, you make better decisions, right? You uphold your boundaries, you steward your energy, and you live in life coherence. Meaning, you show up in alignment with your values. So that is. Why, when you are stronger in your inner authority, you are able to have conversations that may seem like they're difficult, or you know, some people look at them as well. I don't want to have a difficult or confrontation. It's not. It's you're speaking your truth, and you are okay with whatever that external response is, right? Because you know and you trust you have inner knowing and inner truth, right? As opposed to caring so much what externally people are saying, right? So again, you make better decisions because you know that you make a decision, and that doesn't mean that you don't ask for guidance, or you know, input or insight from people you trust. But if you're someone who has a decision to make, and you're constantly going to 5, 6, 7 people and trying to find out what they think, or if they agree with what you're leaning towards, then you're not going to make a quality decision because you're listening to everybody else and you're not trusting your inner truth, your inner knowing. So that's what inner authority comes into. If you are someone who constantly gets your boundaries stretched, and I find this is very interesting, Devon. I find this with high achieving people, people who are top in the in the in their field, right? Top salesperson, top whatever. Their boundaries don't get stretched. They're very strict in their boundaries. What happens is their boundaries dissolve around them without them even realizing it because they are the top performer, and they get all the accolades. And our egos get fed, right? When that happens, you know you're getting raises and you're getting bonuses and you're coming up on the stage at the end of the year and getting the you know trophies and everything, but what you don't realize is that now you are the go-to person. Now the goalpost has been moved, so you look around and you have five projects and all of your peers have two; they're able to clock out at 5 o'clock. You're working till 10. They're able to spend the weekend with their family. You're working through the weekend. They're able to go on vacation, and even though you got the bonus and have the money to go on vacation, you can't because you're strapped with you're the superstar. You're the go-to, and so that's where the boundaries usually, you know, get displaced for high achievers as they evaporate. And then energy: how you steward your energy, what are you putting, and who are you putting your energy into, and are you getting that replenished, right? And so sometimes we have to take stock in, you know, where are we putting all of our our efforts and energy into, and are we getting a return on that? Are we able to replenish from that? And then again, like I said, the life coherence is really: are you showing up in alignment with your values? Devon Morris: You, you, you, you kind of connected some points here that just really had me thinking right now, and and you know I was thinking about any person, but you really talked about that high achiever. I mean, yeah, things dissolving around them, and you said higher achievers don't realize how they really are tethered to that external validation until it's on, until it just evaporates and goes away. So then, what does that tether look like before it actually snaps, and then what does it look like after? Melanie Shires: Yeah, well, if and these are a lot of the women because I work with women, but it is a lot of the women that I work with. They're on the precipice of burnout, or they've already burnt out because they usually are the top in their field. They usually are very driven, perfectionism. You know all the things. What it looks like before that happens, what it looks like is you have this underpinning of anxiety, friction. Your body will always tell you when there's something wrong. So usually your nervous system is screaming, right? And it comes out in different ways. A lot of people just they can't put their finger on it, but they feel like I'm always having headaches. I'm always feeling stressed. I go home. I snap off on my family, and I don't even know why. I should feel a certain way because I'm making really good money. You know, I'm very revered in my in my industry or my field. You know, I ticked all the boxes. Right, I've got the big house. Me and my husband, you know, can go and do things. You know, my kids are off to college. You know, all the things, but I still feel this quiet friction, which again causes me to have headaches, stress, all the things. Right, your body will let you know. It'll be screaming to you. In in in in the lack of health, it'll scream to you that something is wrong, and that's usually when people are at the precipice of burnout. What happens after they burn out is their body completely shuts down. They completely shut down, right? That's when the person is like, okay, I'm leaving my you know high paying job, and I need a sabbatical for a few months. Don't bother me, and let me re let me kind of regroup and figure out what I want to do next, right? Or or they get really ill. Their their their their body shuts down and they're really ill, and so it forces them to take that sabbatical. So either way, it's either a mental situation where they just they hit burnout or their body shuts down in some way that forces them to take that pause. But there is a pause that happens, and usually the people that I find that happens to are usually in midlife, so they're usually 40 plus. They're usually very successful on paper, meaning you know all of the all of the ticks are you know the check boxes are ticked, just like you said. The external validation is there, but it's internally where you know their their inner guide is screaming for help. Devon Morris: So then, if people don't listen to that signal and they don't radical, they don't take the pause. What what happens to those people? Melanie Shires: Yeah, like I just said, their body will let them know. Their body will shut down. Your body will shut down. Trust me, and that's where people have burnout, right? So when you're on the precipice of burnout, you're already having the headaches, feeling stressed, not feeling light and joyful. You're just not. You know, you're you're constantly under the gun, the hustle. Like you know, I got to get the next thing done. I've got a lot of pressure on me, you know. I'm juggling multiple things, and I always tell people this, and I used to tell my team this too. Every single human being has lots of balls in the air. There's no one who's like, I don't have any balls in the air. Everyone has balls in the air. The difference is that you need to understand and discern which balls are made of glass and which balls are made of rubber, right? And so the balls that are made of glass, you need to catch those. So those that are in the air, those you need to catch. What happens a lot of times are people are so focused on the rubber balls that they let the glass ones drop and break, and it's usually the glass ones that are the balls that externally everyone's not focusing on. Everyone focuses on the rubber balls, and the thing is, is that rubber balls will bounce, so you can always catch them, right? And so I think that's the thing. It's like understanding what's important, and one of those glass balls is always going to be our mental, emotional well-being. It really is, and so that's more important than you know how many deals you close. You know how you know how many projects you can take on. I'm not saying don't bring your best self to whatever work you're doing, because you should, right? But there's a difference in bringing your best self to the work and being overworked, right? So and and letting again boundaries dissolve, letting your energy get zapped dry, right? Without any replenishment, and any work environment that is healthy and nurturing and non-toxic is going to make sure that there is always work-life alignment, right? There's never going to be balance, but there is going to be work-life alignment. So the expectation should never be that you sacrifice your mental and emotional well-being for paycheck. Period. Devon Morris: I I can't disagree at all, and you know you you see it, especially if it's somebody close to you. Definitely can see a lot more of that, and people in their health and things of that nature just happening over time because of them not looking out for the glass balls, right? Exactly. Here are the rubber ones, the ones that doesn't matter the most. And and the thing is, is that your body will stop you sooner or later. Like, does not yeah Melanie Shires: exactly Devon Morris: case. So we and Melanie Shires: and that's that. Yeah, that's how burnout happens. I mean, burnout is your body is shutting you down. So if you don't, if you're not able to on your own say, "Hey, I need to take a pause, or let me have some of those difficult conversations because I'm listening to my inner authority to say, "Hey," I appreciate that you want me to take on this new project, and I will take on this new project because I know it's really important to our bottom line or the company or whatever. However, who are we going to delegate the three that I'm already working on? So we need to delegate those to someone else, right? So it's not that you don't need to again perform well in your job. It's you need to also speak your truth. You need to also understand that and trust in yourself and your worth and all the things. Because the reason why people don't have these conversations, the reason why people allow things to go on even though they know it's toxic, is because they don't. They want validation. I don't want to lose my job. I don't want to think that they don't feel like I'm, you know, for the company. Again, you should not have to prove to anyone that you belong in the room. You do belong in the room, period. And if other people are making you feel as though you don't belong there, then maybe that's the wrong room for you to be in. That doesn't mean you don't belong there, right? So that's the thing too. Devon Morris: You know, you you are saying things that are just kind of right on the same plate with me. So then, I'm going back to the first 30 days. The first 30 days. Melanie Shires: Yes, Devon Morris: when it changes. Melanie Shires: Yes, and Devon Morris: then there's something incongruent happening, right? Why do people recalibrate around the new leader before deciding whether anything about them actually needs to change. Melanie Shires: Yeah, well, I mean, I can talk about this from really both sides of the chair because I've been the new leader coming into a situation, and I've also been someone who's been in the environment where a new leader has come in. So when I was the leader, the new leader, actually, I stepped into an executive sales leadership role of a large retailer. I'm not going to say the name; everybody knows it. Large retailer, hundreds of employees across several layers of teams. So they already had an established culture. They had silos, they had developed over time. I needed to understand how that structure was formed before I could effectively change it. I mean, there needed to be change, but I couldn't go in there and change it without an understanding of how it got to where it was. Right, so that meant that I needed to be curious about the why behind how the people worked, right? If I wanted to consider different methods or improve productivity, I first needed to understand the practices that they were accustomed to and what kept those practices in place. So that experience shaped how I think about entering as a new leader. You bring expertise, but the people already there bring knowledge of the environment, and both of those matter. And then, from the flip side, from the other chair, adapting to a new leader calls for the same openness, right? You need to get curious about their priorities, ask what they expect, and give yourself permission to learn without discounting your own experience. So that is really key because, again, like I said earlier, you can't control what type of leader is coming into the new space. What you can control is how you let that affect how you see yourself. Right? You don't discount your own experience because somebody's coming in who's not a good leader, right? That's you should never do that. So for me, both sides of what I just said, that's where inner authority comes in. It's self trust. It's giving me the confidence to listen before I decide on something and to be clear about what I bring, and you know, before I even start changing, you know, my approach to things. Devon Morris: Yeah, Melanie Shires: hopefully that that makes sense. That Devon Morris: that makes complete sense. I'm curious because I'm thinking you're the perfect leader. You're the one that never gets anything wrong, which I know that's not true, but you know that is Melanie Shires: not true. Devon Morris: What? Melanie Shires: That's how. That's how you learn. You know, you got to make mistakes to learn. That is. Devon Morris: That is okay. So then, my question is this, right? What did you read from each chair? Just an example, right? We're not trying to, you know, go through everything. So, what did you misread from each chair. Melanie Shires: Well, yeah. I mean, that's how I was able to learn how to be a better leader. Honestly, is going into situations, and especially, and I'm not saying you know just because you're young, but when you are less experienced, you know, the very first time that I became a leader, the very first promotion I got where I had to manage other people. Of course, I was not going to be as good at it as after I've done it for years and years, right? So of course everybody has that. The first time that you have a responsibility that's something new, you're you're you're learning. So I made a lot of these very mistakes, right? Going in as a leader, and not understanding that though I was very excited about oh oh this is a new opportunity for me to make change now I'm in a leadership position and I can actually you know be in charge to make the decisions that would bring about change that actually would improve things. I had to realize that okay, even though I'm excited about that, I have to read the room. I'm going into an environment with people who are used to doing things a certain way and a culture that had already been established. So, it's not going to come across with the same you know, excitement and fervor as I'm bringing to it, coming in and saying, "Okay, now I, I know you guys have been doing it this way. I want everybody to now do it this way, and you're starting to go in and change everything. I mean, you know how it is when, if you're, you know, a teenager and you have your bedroom set up a certain way, and then your parent comes in there and starts rearranging stuff. I mean, you're gonna be upset. You're gonna be like, "Wait, hold on a second. What are you doing? I had things the way I I had things put the way that I wanted, right? And that's with any human being. It's like your your environment, your your space, how you, and even the space in your mind, like how you have things organized, is in some ways comfortable to you, even if it's not as efficient, right? And especially if you've been doing it for a while, then it's there's there's habit in there too. So it's really hard to have somebody come in and just rearrange things, you know, without listening to why you've arranged it in the way you did in the first place, right? And so I had to learn that lesson, and so that's why, as an older leader, I was able to glean from those missteps and actually be a better leader, and then say, hey, you know what? When I go in, I need to make sure that I see the lay of the land, right? These individuals know the environment and culture. How can I come in, listen to what they like and why they like it, and even listen to what they would like changed? Because maybe it's in alignment with what I'm coming in thinking needs to be changed, right? So, let me do active listening. Let me be curious and open. And I think curiosity and openness is key in both sides, right? You need to be curious to learn and understand why things are the way they are. Why is the new boss coming in and wanting to make these changes? Why, as the new boss, the environment is the way it is. You know, even if it's dysfunctional, it's like how did it get there? Like to learn that, and and and that understanding then will help you to bring people along with you on the change, as opposed to dragging them into the change. Right? They'll they'll they'll they'll come in arms locked with you if you do it that way. And then from the flip side, being someone who has to adapt to a new leader again, it still gets back to active listening, curiosity, and being open, but also being strong in your inner authority and knowing the value you bring in who you are and how you contribute to the work you're doing for the organization or the company because, like I keep saying, you cannot control how someone else behaves, acts, shows up in the world, but you can control how you respond to Devon Morris: it. So Melanie Shires: hopefully that answers. Devon Morris: No, you you are answering everything. There's no hope to this, right? Everybody way more than what they asked for. So this is perfect. This is perfect. So I'm curious, right? You said the older leader. I'm gonna talk. Say to you. I'm gonna say Melanie, the more seasoned leader. What would yeah? Melanie Shires: Actually, that is better. Yeah, that's a that's a better terminology because I was trying to think like you know you can have someone who is a younger person who has been a leader for a while. Like somebody might have you know led teams at an earlier age than someone else, so I do like that better. Seasoned, that's much better. Devon Morris: So, so let's just talk about. So, let's just say, Melanie is seasoned leader. What would that seasoned leader tell the leader that was unseasoned, just absolutely brand new to leadership? One day, one. Melanie Shires: Yeah, exactly what I just said. Really, I would say the best three things you can do in the first 30 days, Devon Morris: yeah, Melanie Shires: right, are are being open, being curious, Devon Morris: yeah, Melanie Shires: and doing active listening, even though you might have a list, an agenda, like you know, things that you want to bring, and you're excited about it, because most leaders are going into an environment for to improve it, to have impact up in a positive way, and most people are not going in. Okay, let me just you know wreak chaos. No, they're going in and they're really excited about it. They have to understand that they're excited about the opportunity, but they have to understand they're going into an environment that has already been set right. And there's reasons why the environment is the way it is. And so again, to come in and listen to the people who are in that environment currently, as to what they like, what they would like to see change, why they think it's the way it is, that will actually that information, that's data that will make you step back and think a little bit and actually make better decisions. Really, I mean, you make better decisions when you have more information. When you have more data, you are able to make better decisions. So it's the same thing. It's like you walking into an environment because the company said we need to change this department, and now we're hiring you to come in and clean it up. Okay, well, what does "clean it up" mean? Like, you need to get data from the people who are in that department. Why is the department the way it is? You'll be amazed at how many employees would love to have their leader sit them down and ask them. So, how do you feel working here? How do you feel about this department? What do you think would be great to have change? What do you actually like? How can I help you to be better in this role, as opposed to coming in and saying, "Okay, this is what we need to do. We need you. You need to switch this. You need to do that. Or you know what I'm saying? It needs to be a an exchange, a conversation where you're doing more of the listening. That's what active listening is, and listening to you know the employees may be like you know what? Yes, this is a horrible, toxic environment, and I would love to see it change. But nobody asked us. We were just told this is what we need to do, and things that you know weren't really positive. There's been bullying going on here. There's been all these things going on that is left unchecked, and so we're looking for someone to help us. I mean, how would you know that if you just go in and not talk to anybody? That's important data, right? I mean, so I think if you go in with those three things, Devon Morris: yeah. Melanie Shires: Regardless, if you're a new leader or a seasoned leader, and you go in with openness, curiosity, and active listening, then I think that you're you're way ahead of most, and that you will find that the outcome will be very positive. Devon Morris: That is that is legitimately the perfect summary, right? And and you you hear you heard it directly from her again, and and it's kind of almost beating it into you. And the thing is, before any of us was leaders. All of us wished they would listen, right? All of Melanie Shires: us. Yes. Devon Morris: Some point, right? And and think back who you were. But here's the deal. Here's the deal. Because we only got so much time, so I have to keep I have to keep moving because we have to talk about it. Yeah, yeah. So here's the thing, right? Most leaders, I would consider to be a sandwiched leader. They're in between. They're leading some people, and they got some people that they report to to some degree. Okay, if think about that, what what's one new agreement that a leader in that situation should make with their team, like in the very first week. Melanie Shires: When you say what agreement that they should make, if they're like sandwiched in between, like I guess I'm clarifying just a little bit Devon Morris: between right, and so you got people you report to, right? But you got Melanie Shires: leadership, yeah, Devon Morris: and then you're leading people as well. So you're coming in brand new. What's one agreement that they should make with that team in the first week? Either above that, they Melanie Shires: will Devon Morris: then probably yeah, Melanie Shires: yeah. Okay, so yeah. So if I was if I was a leader that was coming in for the first week, which I have been, then my my first thing that I would want the team to know is that I'm going to sit down with each and every one of them, and you know get to know them. Really, that I mean again, it gets back to the openness, curiosity, and active listening. I want to have a conversation with each of them because I also am a strong believer in mentorship and of professional and personal development. So that was really big for me with my teams, all the teams that I had, regardless if they were large or small. I always wanted to know where did they see themselves? Where did they want to go? How could I help get them there? You know, if good leaders to me mentor and help develop other leaders, right? And so for me, I wanted to know: Is this a position that you want to stay in, or are you looking? Are your sights somewhere else, and how can I, being in the position that I'm in, help you get to where you want to go? So I can't do that if I don't sit down and ask you certain questions as a leader, right? So, so that would be the first, I guess, agreement that I would have, and that I have had when I've come into a new position as a leader in a company, organization, or department, Devon Morris: now the beauty of this is that you said that you've done it. So here's what I want to know from you: you've seen it and you've done it. What kind of behaviors do you see from people when you actually do do that, and then I want you to contrast that to other leaders that you've seen that didn't, and what type of behaviors you've seen between between the two. Melanie Shires: Yeah, and I can tell you what's the difference. Devon Morris: Yeah, if Melanie Shires: you go to my LinkedIn profile and you go down to recommendations, I have recommendations from people that I led, and people that have led me. So it's not all of my recommendations are from people saying she was a great da da da da. I have people saying she was a wonderful leader because she listened, she helped me, she you know what I'm saying. So so what happens when you do that as a leader is that you have people who, because they are inspired by you, not because they fear you or because they feel like they have to begrudgingly, they want to go above and beyond for you. My team wants to do well for me because they know that I have their best interest at heart, that I want the best for them that I am actually not holding back information, not you know trying to say well I'm the head of no I'm trying to help them through professional development if there's something they want to know if there's something they want to you know take on another responsibility because they want to learn or whatever absolutely if they ask me a question, or if there's someone I can introduce them to to help them in some way, absolutely. I am always open to mentoring, and when you do that, you get people who will go above and beyond for you without you having to say anything. Right? They will have your back. They will speak your name after they're long gone from being, you know, under you, and that to me, it's a legacy, and that is so beautiful. And and I don't know, it's just beautiful to have that. The flip side, and all of us can talk to that because we probably have had bad bosses and good bosses. But you know, the flip side to that is there are people who honestly you have to constantly fight with them to to get the productivity or the performance out of them. There's always sabotage that goes on sometimes, and then the biggest thing is is that those under you and those employees that you are leading, who know their inner authority, they will leave. They will not stay with you because they understand their worth, value, and opportunity. They know that they don't have to stay somewhere that they don't want to. That's all about boundaries and stewardship, energy stewardship, right? So they will not stay in a toxic environment. Devon Morris: Yeah. Melanie Shires: So you'll have good people leaving you. So yeah. Devon Morris: Which which which sucks, but just that's just truth, right? I mean. Melanie Shires: Oh yeah, that is true. That's like any relationship. If you are in a relationship, regardless of what it is, and you are giving and receiving, then that's going to be a good relationship. If you are just taking, taking, taking from someone, they're going to leave. It's not a good relationship for them. I mean, just think about yourself. Like you know, if you're constantly giving, and you're not, you know, getting anything back, meaning you know, there's no accountability for the other person doing things that really don't help a situation, like I was telling you guys in the very beginning. You know, I was in a situation where I was a leader over marketing, but yet being excluded from very important conversations on how that piece of the business would be implemented. How can I not be included in those conversations, but yet I was being held accountable for the outcome, right? So someone who knows their worth and value and the fact that they have options is not going to stay in that kind of relationship pretty long. You know what I mean? So Devon Morris: like that you said that because when change is happening around you, and it comes from above or from the side or wherever it's coming from, right? And your team really need answers. They really want the answers. Yeah, don't know, and you don't have the answer. How do you really hold things together? What do you do? Melanie Shires: Again, it's it's it's very easy to to focus on what you can control, not what other people right are are doing. So in that situation, I mean, I've had I've I've had that situation. So for example, I had a designer who was a part-time graphic designer on my team, and he was hired with the understanding that after six months we would consider him for full-time employment, right? Based on his performance, so six months came and went, right? And I'm trying to get approval because even though this was in my department, I needed approval from my boss and the CFO, right, for budgets and you know whatever. So, you know, I'm trying to hold on as long as I can. This person really, as you can imagine, wants some kind of clarity about his future, right? Am I getting more hours, more income, that kind of thing. So that's to say, I didn't have the external authority to prove to approve that change, but I had a responsibility to consider what I could offer him. So what I could offer him is what I've been talking about. I continued investing in his professional development, mentoring him, introducing him to entrepreneurs and solopreneurs who needed his design skills so he could get side work right. And I always encourage my team to build relationships and seek mentorship because opportunities often come through people you know and who know your work right. So I knew he had good work. I knew he did a good job with things, and I could vouch for him because I've seen his work. He worked for me, so it was really easy for me for people that I knew that were running small businesses or running businesses on their own, entrepreneur solopreneurs who needed design work. I'm like, hey, you should talk to this person, and I could vouch for this person because they worked for me, right? So again, the introduce you know my introductions couldn't replace the security he was asking for, but I could help him build connections and possibilities where you know I could while he waited. So that is Devon Morris: if you if you was my leader and you more money outside the company. Yeah, you're done. Melanie Shires: Well, and that well, and that's the thing too. It's like that also opens up your mind, right? So think about this. That also opens up your mind that hmm, maybe I don't need to work for a company. Maybe I can be a consultant or independent contractor and have multiple companies I work for. Since I'm already working for this company part time, right? Why not have multiple companies like this that I'm working for? Right. So it kind of opens, you know, it opens the mind up of possibilities. Devon Morris: Yeah, people and their families. I mean, I love it. I like that. It's hard to beat. So here's the deal: there, there's sometimes information that comes across the board that you just can't immediately share. And there, there's a line that exists when you are a leader sandwiched in the middle, right? Yeah, Melanie Shires: yeah. Devon Morris: Where's the line between protecting your team and keeping them in the dark? Melanie Shires: Well, yeah. I mean, there are some things that I don't look at as keeping them in the dark because I am about transparency, but there are certain things that don't need to be divulged because it's not. It's kind of a need to know basis. They don't, you know, why give information to someone that they can't really do anything about, and it's not going to bring about any kind of positivity. I guess. Is I guess the best. Let me try to think of an analogy. It's kind of like the news, right? There are certain things that we will hear about on the news, but we're not going to know everything about certain things if it deals with national security and stuff like that, right? Because we, as the public, don't need to know all of the nitty gritty. All it's going to do is cause panic and chaos unnecessarily. So I think that's where I look at when I'm when I'm thinking of okay something that I'm I'm learning because I'm in the boardroom with senior executives that we're talking about on the bigger scale or like you know the bigger picture of of strategy or whatever we're dealing with with the business, my team doesn't need to know all of that. My team just needs to know what is going to affect them directly, or what you know what they need to know so that they can do their job effectively. Right? They don't need to know every single thing. So I you know I don't really look at it as keeping somebody in the dark. I think it's more of, you know, a need to know basis, kind of thing, right? Devon Morris: I like how you distinguish that. That is really amazing. I have a word that came to my head that I just want to just state it and just allow you to give me just your straight up opinion, right? And that one is imposter syndrome. Melanie Shires: Oh, I hate that word. Okay, yes. Oh well, I hate that word because I I hear it and I'm like, okay. So what do you want me to say about this word? So when I when I hear it, what comes to mind or what I think about it, like what what, Devon Morris: and then how do you help people deal with that? Melanie Shires: Okay, so you already know how I feel about that word. Okay, how I help people deal with it again, you need to trust your inner self, right? You know, no one can be Devon better than Devon. No one can be Melanie better than Melanie. And so, if Melanie has been studying, working, doing something for a long time, I have expertise in it. So, I should not have to get validation from someone else externally. You know, for me to feel like I am an expert in whatever, and that's what I was saying about earlier. About you know, you should not have to prove to anyone that you belong in the room. You belong in the room. It's just, are you in the wrong room, right? So, so that's the bigger picture, right? It's people feel like they're in the whole imposter syndrome is they're second guessing or questioning their their expertise, right? Even when you know your value, I mean, people will say, "Well, I know my value, but I've only been doing X for so long, right? Or you know, everyone around me is more seasoned. Actually, you should take that as a compliment that you're in the room with seasoned people. That doesn't mean that you don't belong there. That just means, oh, I have so many opportunities to get better, to have mentorship, to get introduced to other people. Right? I mean, you have to look at it in that way, as opposed to "Ooh, I don't know if I really belong here, and start shrinking, right? So I don't know. I just don't like. I don't believe people are imposters. I believe that we have inner critics that we have in our head, but we also have, you know, guides in our head, right? And our guides are always talking in a whisper. You know, our inner guide talks in a whisper. Our inner critic has a bullhorn. It's like one of those cheerleaders with a bullhorn, just screaming. Right. So this is what gets heard a lot, and this is what doesn't. But when you quiet, you you you get still and you pause, you can actually hear your guide, and your guide knows, right? You belong here. You have value worth. You know how much you've contributed to this company, organization, cause, whatever it is, right? You know the education. You know, you know what you've done to get you to where you are. So you don't need someone else to tell you that you belong. I mean, that's to me. It's you should already know. And then if other people are, you know, corroborating what you already know that's great, but you should already know whether you have a bunch of people telling you the same thing or not. You should know. Devon Morris: Yeah, that is that is. You know, we I think we all hit that space where that that guide that's whispering is being out by the wind. Is just loud and telling you. Oh yeah, Melanie Shires: the inner critic, and I deal with this all the time. So I'm not here, and I don't want your listeners to think that you know I'm that I know it all or whatever. And I am still learning, and the reason why I'm able to speak to this is because I have made mistakes because I have you know not listened to my inner guide and let my inner critic guide me into you know wasted years and and you know just untruths right I mean I have done that too but it's once you are aware then when you when life be lifing and you do slip into old behaviors, patterns, thoughts. Then you can pause because now you're aware. Okay, what is my inner critic? I mean, what is my inner guide saying? You know, because the critic has been screaming. You know, and that's you know. And however people are able to hear their inner guide. Some people, it's through meditation. Some people, it's through prayer. Some people, I mean, everybody's different. But you, everybody knows exactly what I'm talking about when you are dealing with difficult situations or or or decisions you have to make, or you're in a you know you're you're in a place where you're uncertain, unsure, or as you would say, the imposter syndrome. Then that's when it's really important to lean on your inner guide, right, and not the critic. Devon Morris: So then, you know, because we all go through this, like I go through it for sure. Even when I'm training a class that I've trained a million times, sometimes I get them where you know the critic is just a little bit louder than the guide, and have to find a deal with that, right? And deal with it in the moment. I completely understand. So whoever's out there going through it, we all go through it. Going to assume if there's somebody out there that's perfect, let us know and let us figure out how you solved it permanently. We be yeah. There's no Melanie Shires: there's no such thing as perfection. That's why when you deal when when and I'm a recovering perfectionist, when you're trying to be perfect, Devon Morris: yeah, Melanie Shires: you add so much more stress, and and and it's just it's there is no such thing as perfection. You have to let that go. That doesn't mean that you don't show up your best self or that you don't try to do your best work when you are in a position. That's not what I'm saying. But there is no such thing as perfection. There's always room for improvement, and once you realize that, you can really just drop all of the you know bricks that you have because really it's okay. You know most people are their own worst critic, right? I mean they they they you know they they hold themselves back in that, especially those of us who were perfectionists, you know. I mean, that's that's that's hard because you know you you will have your boundaries, you know, evaporate. You will be you know giving giving giving and not getting replenishment back on the and where you put your energy when you are so focused, and you will let a lot of glass balls drop, because a lot of times perfectionists are so focused on making sure they catch all the balls, right? They're like, I gotta, gotta catch all of them, right? You're never going to catch them all, and so you're going to end up burning yourself out trying to do that. Devon Morris: You know what I? You know the thing is, I've never been a perfectionist, so I there's a level me that understands it because I see it. That's Melanie Shires: good. That's good. Devon Morris: Don't understand it because it's not me. But I am all about continuous improvement, and so one of the things that I did in preparation for this episode is I took the inner authority assessment. Want to make sure I talk about this because I'm always on a journey of making myself a little bit better, right? And so, Melanie Shires: yes. Devon Morris: Before I at least talk about my score, and you tell me a little bit about who I am, because I think this is the perfect place to talk about it before we start giving people tips on what to do when you are sandwiched or you know in some leadership position. Tell us a little bit about the assessment, so and then we can talk about me. Now listen, y'all. Be nice to me, okay? I'm out here taking risk. So go ahead, tell us. Melanie Shires: Well, yeah. I mean, essentially, the assessment, it's a free assessment, and it touches on. I have an I have a framework called the Inner Authority Framework, and this is what I teach in you know my workshops and in my intensives, but it talks about those four you know what I call you know domains or they could be your capacities, right? So that's decision making, energy stewardship, boundary integrity, and life coherence, so it kind of touches on that. So this assessment, you answer questions, and then based on your answers, and it's you know gives you you know a scenario and what you would do in that scenario, how you think about that scenario, and then you kind of see where your score is based on those four domains. So like where you scored in decision quality, you know, boundary integrity, energy stewardship, and life coherence, and then the total of that will give you what your inner authority, I guess, reflection or or because I don't really like saying score because again, this changes. You know, you may, you know, depending on the season of your life where you are, you know, these things may change, right? So it's more of just a snapshot or a reflection of where you are right now, and there's four different archetypes that are attached to certain score ranges. So you have your anchored wayfinder, your emerging wayfinder. Which a wayfinder is someone who's a navigator. That's what wayfinder means. So an anchored wayfinder, an emerging wayfinder, an externally oriented leader, and then an overextended self leader. So those are the four, and it kind of just all four of them focus on a particular area. So what's great about the assessment is then you have a kind of your base point of all right. I can see you know where I may have opportunity to improve, and where I'm really solid within my inner authority, right? Because we all can improve in some way, and like I said, it also is interesting because where you are today may be different five years from now, or even just five months from now, right? Depending on what's going on in your life, or you know what season you are in a particular time of your life, right? So that's essentially what the assessment is. But Devon Morris: the coach is going to coach me now. So here's the deal: I score a 94% overall. That's my snapshot. Decision quality, life coherence was 100%. My boundary integrity was 92% and my lowest score was energy stewardship at 83. So then, what would you say to me about those lower ones that I have, and what I can do to make things a little bit better in terms of my inner authority. Melanie Shires: Well, yeah. So if your lowest one, I mean, obviously had high scores across them all, so you have a pretty strong inner authority, which is great, right? So you trust yourself, and you you listen more internally than the external, you know, noise that's going around you. So that's actually great. If your lowest score was the energy stewardship, then I would just say focus on, you know, who and what you're spending your energy on. Are there places where your energy is being leaked, meaning that you know, are there people in your life, whether they are people you work with or personal friends, whatever, where they drain you more than you're getting filled back up. So that's where, or are there you know again places? So is it the workplace or is it you know whether you're in school or you know community type things like church, whatever, where you're giving energy or energy is being leaked, where it's not being replenished. I always tell people we're like batteries, like really. So you know, when you're drained, you need to replenish your battery before you get drained again, right? So if there's certain people that you're around and they drain you, and maybe they don't drain you in a negative way, it could be a very positive way. If you are a very introverted person and you're with someone who's extremely extroverted, you can enjoy thoroughly their company, but after you're with them. You're drained. They've drained your battery, right? So you need to maybe have some time to yourself before you get, you know, before you see another extroverted person. So if you're someone who's introverted and introverts, understand this. You go out and you socialize and you enjoy yourself, but then you're like, okay, I can't, you know. Go out and socialize in the morning, and then at night. Like I need to have some some me time, right? So, it's more about the people and places that are draining energy, and they could be draining it in a positive way. I'm not saying it's negative, but how are you replenishing that, right? Are you whatever that is? If you in whatever you enjoy doing, so hobbies and things like that help replenish sometimes because then you can you know express yourself in a joyful way, right? Or some people it's taking naps. Some people it's you know watching the ball game and just not having to make decisions at all, right? Just enjoying you know just drinking a beer and watching your your your sport team, you know how whatever that is, you just need to make sure that you're replenishing the energy that's being taken. Devon Morris: So and y'all, I was gonna Devon Morris: say, Devon Morris: I am a introvert with all extroverted domains. Okay, all extrovert. Melanie Shires: So there we go. Devon Morris: So it's one of those things where I've done a lot of assessments on myself, and I can guarantee you what Melanie said earlier is extremely true. I I took this I took this assessment in the morning before I really started my day on a day that was super busy for me. I guarantee you that my assessment would be complete would have been completely different if I'd done it toward the end of the day because I would mind gone and it's something I know I gotta manage something I deal with on a regular basis but here's a question right what and this is for everybody in audience right where does inner authority go wrong? Melanie Shires: I don't think it goes wrong, but I mean, what do you mean? Can you give me more clarity? Because I do feel like you, if you, here's my thing. I'm not saying that inner authority means I know all the answers and no one else can give me, you know, any kind of guidance. That's not what inner authority is. Inner authority means you trust yourself to know what's best for yourself, right? That's that's really what it is. I'm not saying that in order to make great decisions, you don't seek the counsel or the the the guidance of people that you trust or experts. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if every single time you have a decision to make, you don't trust yourself to just make that decision without getting reinforcement or you know getting some type of confirmation from multiple people every single time you have to make a decision, then that means you're not trusting yourself. You have to have somebody always telling you no, that's the right decision for you. Well, how can Melanie always be telling Devon what's the right decision for Devon? I can't be Devon. Only Devon can be Devon. Devon is the only person who can be Devon the best, right? Now you can say, Melanie, hey, I, you know, I want your opinion on something, or I want your guidance on something because I trust you as my friend or as an expert or whatever. But I, but still, Devon knows what's best for Devon, so he will take what he needs to from Melanie, but he doesn't need Melanie to tell him exactly what to do. Does that make sense? Like when you're going and you're getting getting you know seeking advice or assistance from experts, that doesn't mean that they're telling you need to do X. They're telling you from my expertise, this is whatever, right? I mean, I look at it like AI, right? So AI should not replace you, right? You go to AI for as a tool, right? The same way that you would go and seek someone's counsel, right? It's like, okay, I, you know, I have this big decision. You know, I know that you've gone through this before me. So from your experience, what what would you tell me? And you can tell me from your experience, but it's still from your experience. And then I can take what you tell me, and then I can still do the assessment of whether now I will take that or not, right when I make my decision. Does that make sense? As opposed to having to go to people in order to make the decision. So I think that's the difference. So inner authority isn't saying that you're the end all, the be all, and you're all knowing. You know, walking encyclopedia. It is the closest to that you are is for yourself, but that doesn't mean that you, you know, have all the answers. It means that you're the best at being yourself than anyone else, and so yes, you go and you get guidance from people who are experts who've been down the road that you're trying to go from, you know, friends and family who you trust. But at the end of the day, no one can be you better than you. So you need to really trust your inner knowing, Devon Morris: yeah, yeah. Melanie Shires: And people call it different things. I call it inner because it's authority. It's your inner authority. Some people call it your, you know, I don't know, your spirit, your, you know, life, your soul, whatever, whatever people call it. But to me, it's an authority. It is your your inner guide, your inner authority, because you have the authority. It is you. Yeah, you are the best at being you. Devon Morris: Authority is a word that comes with so many other things associated with it. So you really just clarify what you meant by authority, and that's what I really wanted you to just give the audience. So I have one final question, right? Melanie Shires: Okay. Yeah. Devon Morris: Love for you to think about it from that sandwich leader perspective because, you know, again, most people got a boss if they're a leader equal at the same time, regardless. Oh, Melanie Shires: absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Devon Morris: So, what would you tell a leader whose team is behind right now and they know it? Melanie Shires: Okay, can you clarify when you say behind? That means they're not hitting goals that they need to hit. They are in an environment that I mean, can you give me more clarity? Devon Morris: Behind in terms of the goals that they're that they're not hitting, the marks they're supposed to make. They're just behind right now in terms of whatever that that point is. That management, the team wanted them to be be at whatever that point is at. They're behind, and you as the leader, know that this particular team is behind. How do you deal with leader? Melanie Shires: Well, again, it gets back to what I said before. It's being open, curious, and active listening. There is a reason why the team's behind. Whatever the the goal or the I'll just say goal. So whatever the goal is for that team, if we're not, if we're if we're if we're not tracking to hit it, let's just put it that way. If we're not tracking to hit it, then we constantly need to be assessing what we could be doing better, and it needs to be done as a team, and it really needs to be the leader's responsibility to again listen, be open and curious, because everyone on the team has a part to play, and so everyone also has wants to be heard and wants to, you know what I'm saying to to have their voice heard and their contribution to the whole recognized. So really, in that case, it's about us coming together and listening and being open to each other on what are the things that we could be doing better as a unit? Are there individuals within that unit that are not pulling their weight? I mean, that's that's a that's more of a let's be transparent and and honest and have honest conversation and and and strategy sessions on how since we're not tracking, where are we lagging, and how can we, as a team, help each other so that we can pull each other up, so that we can track, so that we can change it, so that we can course correct, right? So, Devon Morris: I think I think you said it perfectly, and I think it it just is reiterated throughout the entire show, that curiosity, that openness, and that active listening, extremely open, right? And so, I'll ask now: Is where should people find you, and tell us what's coming up for you? Melanie Shires: Yeah, so people can find me. I'm on LinkedIn. Everybody can find me. It's Melanie, Positively Melanie. If you just put in Positively Melanie, I'll pop up. I'm on LinkedIn. That's where I live, really. You can find me. My website is positivelymelanie.com. If and on LinkedIn and on my website, there is a link to my free assessment. So you know what if you're curious about where you you know where you are within your own inner authority, and like I said, it's just a snapshot. Then take the assessment. I do every month a Inner Authority Reset, where you take the assessment and then you get kind of an introductory into my framework. So it's really nice. You'll end up with a roadmap of where to go next. And again, it's on my website, so you can sign up for that there. Yeah, so LinkedIn is really the best place for me. So I Devon Morris: love it. I love. I mean, Melanie Shires: I'm on the I'm on the other platforms too, but really LinkedIn is where I spend most of my time. Devon Morris: And here's and here's what I do, right? I'll I'll take it and I'll take the link to your website so they can get the assessment and make sure that it's in the show notes. So and then they can go description, and they can grab it from there. So it makes it a little bit easier. So wherever you're listening at, you can capture it in the description or in the show notes. You'll see it right there. So I am going to say to you, Melanie, this has been an amazing conversation, I really truly know is going to be helpful for people. I Melanie Shires: thank you, thank you, Devon Morris: and teams alike, especially those leaders that are sandwiched in the middle, because that is really tough place to be. So, from audience to you, I'm gonna say thank you, and let's just say bye to them. So we'll see y'all next time. Yes, bye. Hack on because there's more things to talk about. Melanie Shires: Yes, yes, yes. And always remember, right? Those three things, right? So Devon Morris: if you and if you don't, you already heard them. So we're not going to repeat them right now. Melanie Shires: Yeah. Active listening, curiosity, and openness. Right, Devon Morris: she gave it to y'all. She's nice. That's the reason why she got all those LinkedIn recommendations. That's the reason why. Thank you, Melanie, so much, and I will catch you. Thank you, everybody. Melanie Shires: Yes, thank you, Devon. Devon Morris: Thank you for joining us, where every Tuesday and Thursday we work toward bridging the gap for teams that are behind.